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adjustable low v trigger 12v relay


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lexelite 
Copper - Posts: 82
Copper spacespace
Joined: October 16, 2005
Posted: February 17, 2009 at 12:48 PM / IP Logged  
I need help trying to figure out the best way to setup an "on-the-fly" adjustable voltage trigger (sensitive down to .02V) 12V relay.
I have setup many 12v trigger relays including low voltage trigger setups (sensitive .2V) , but never one that had to be adjustable or as sensitive.
For those of you wondering, I have to tap into a car TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) to handle other car events based on pedal position.
Specifically, a valve in the exhaust that would open and closed depending on TPS voltages.
Any relay or circuit used would be diode isolated to prevent feedback back into the car system.
I need help with finding the easiest way to implement this. Please remember that the low-voltage trigger threshold will have to be adjustable on the fly and is a constant voltage.
EDIT: This might be a 2 part problem because:
1) 12V Triggered Valve would open with TPS voltage greater than set adjustable threshold
2) 12V Triggered Valve would close with TPS voltage less than set adjustable threshold.
KPierson 
Platinum - Posts: 3,527
Platinum spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: April 14, 2005
Location: Ohio, United States
Posted: February 18, 2009 at 10:39 AM / IP Logged  

Use a programmable microcontroller with a built in A/D converter.  You can use a 30K ohm resistor between the TPS signal and the chip which should eliminate any chance of modifying the signal.

You won't be able to diode isolate the signal and have it read down to 0.2vdc because of the voltage drop of the diode.  The diode would also modify the voltage going in to the processor.  If you want isolation (which you don't need as long as you use the resistor) you would want to use an op amp set up as a voltage follower using high impedence resistors.

You could then, using the same processor, wire up to pots and independently set on and off thresholds that would be adjustable on the fly.  You could also use an ext. int. to monitor RPM or any other signal in the car and control the output based on other signals.

You could also go about doing this with op amps alone set up to compare voltages.  It wouldn't be near as pretty or flexible, but it would work.  You would feed your TPS voltage, through a 30K resistor in to one input of a comparator.  You would then wire a pot to the other input.  The pot would dictate the switching threshold.  You would need to set up some sort of latch for the hysterisus - you could possibly use the "ON" threshold to latch a relay and then the "OFF" threshold to unlatch it.

Kevin Pierson
lexelite 
Copper - Posts: 82
Copper spacespace
Joined: October 16, 2005
Posted: February 19, 2009 at 3:33 PM / IP Logged  
Consider me impressed, KPierson!
Even though I know enough to be dangerous, I feel like I should have stayed in my EE program a little longer before switching majors.
KPierson wrote:
Use a programmable microcontroller with a built in A/D converter.
Because I would be a beginner at programming a microcontroller with ADC, would like to use a more simple approach- if possible.
KPierson wrote:
You can use a 30K ohm resistor between the TPS signal and the chip ! which should eliminate any chance of modifying the signal. You won't be able to diode isolate the signal and have it read down to 0.2vdc because of the voltage drop of the diode. The diode would also modify the voltage going in to the processor.
Thanks for the tip- I didn’t consider the inline voltage drop as altering the signal, however, you are right. I will use a 30K ohm resistor instead.
KPierson wrote:
If you want isolation (which you don't need as long as you use the resistor) you would want to use an op amp set up as a voltage follower using high impedence resistors.
I come up against the “learn-to-build-an-op-amp” wall before, but have always managed to dodge it with creative techniques. I am afraid that I might actually learn how to build this simple circuit.   
Would you be willing to help with a simple schematic with individuals pots on separate resistor dividers?
KPierson wrote:
You could also go about doing this with op amps alone set up to compare voltages. It wouldn't be near as pretty or flexible, but it would work. You would feed your TPS voltage, through a 30K resistor in to one input of a comparator. You would then wire a pot to the other input. The pot would dictate the switching threshold.
Exactly op amps wouldn’t be as easy or pretty, but would certainly work.
KPierson wrote:
You would need to set up some sort of latch for the hysterisus - you could possibly use the "ON" threshold to latch a relay and then the "OFF" threshold to unlatch it.
This is an interesting concept, however, I am not sure how you would implement this. I at first thought that a latching relay that would receive the 12V trigger would be enough, however, there may be a huge hole in this theory that I have not thought about yet. However, I think your idea would be more reliable. Any thoughts on implementation?
lexelite 
Copper - Posts: 82
Copper spacespace
Joined: October 16, 2005
Posted: February 19, 2009 at 3:36 PM / IP Logged  
I also thought about this custom relay setup (see link below) as the most simple solution. Even though I would have to throw the adjustable threshold out the window and pre-determine the best threshold, these relays seem to me as the easy way out.
Preset Threshold relay
For the record, I am surprised that an aftermarket company has not already made a custom box to interface with car TPS sensors for car installs.
KPierson 
Platinum - Posts: 3,527
Platinum spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: April 14, 2005
Location: Ohio, United States
Posted: February 19, 2009 at 4:06 PM / IP Logged  

Op amps are really easy to work with, as long as you know what you want to do with them.  A voltage follower circuit is about the most basic - it takes the voltage in and outputs it - the "front end" typically is high impedence and the output can be transistorized to make it a great tool for isolation.

An op amp in comparator mode isn't much more complicated.  You can find schematics for both with google searches.

For the "latching" I would think you can have the low threshold provide a (-) output to the relay.  Then, have the high threshold provide the + for the coil.  Have the relay "latch" itself as well as provide a +12v output.  This way, once the TPS is above the low threshold the relay will have a (-) signal but not energize because there is no +.  Then, when you exceed your high threshold you will have a + voltage for the coil, causing the relay to energize.  Since the relay is self latching it will keep the relay latched even if you drop below the high voltage threshold.  However, if you drop below the low threshold the coil will lose it's - side and thus the relay will drop out and break the latch.  It seems pretty simple with not too many parts.  You can get one chip with dual op amps which will reduce part count, then a few pots, and a few transistors, a resistor or two, and a relay and you're in business.

I'm pretty sure there are companies out there that make adjustable throttle switching - especially for nitrous applications.  I've never bought one so I don't know how adjustable they are, but I'm guessing they are made.

Kevin Pierson
lexelite 
Copper - Posts: 82
Copper spacespace
Joined: October 16, 2005
Posted: February 23, 2009 at 8:33 AM / IP Logged  
I believe your previous explanation of how the designed circuit would work assumed that the exhaust automatically closes upon release of a signal (i.e spring-loaded)(please correct me if I understood it wrong). However, the exhaust valve has to reverse polarity for it close on a timed switch..hence the previous mention of a latched relay.
KPierson wrote:

I'm pretty sure there are companies out there that make adjustable throttle switching - especially for nitrous applications.  I've never bought one so I don't know how adjustable they are, but I'm guessing they are made.

Bear with me here KPierson, but I am about to veer in a different direction. Your last sentence made me think you had to be right, however, any premade TPS sensor would still have to be made with a series of timers and relays.
I am more comfortable with relays and timers and made a diagram utilizing a ZEX TPS sensor at its core. The closing of the valve depends on the release of the ZEX TPS trigger signal. This is sensed as a "long pulse" by the 528T. Thus when the opening of the valve is complete and the TPS is below the threshold, the "close valve" 528T will be triggered and send the reverse polarity signal to the latched relay downstream.
The open and close logic should repeat itself successfully for this function.
Could you please review it and tell me if you see any errors in my logic?
I can think of 2 potential errors that need confirming:
#1 Possible Error- The DEI 528T uses a positive input instead of a negative when the blue wire loop is cut. Is this true? If so, I will have to add a reverse polarity relay for the "close valve 528T" for it to function correctly.
#2 Possible Error- The 611T latched relay will not carry a timed constant signal for as long as the 528T upstream tells it. Is this true?
Thoughts?
adjustable low v trigger 12v relay -- posted image.
KPierson 
Platinum - Posts: 3,527
Platinum spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: April 14, 2005
Location: Ohio, United States
Posted: February 23, 2009 at 9:38 AM / IP Logged  

What kind of exhaust valve is it?  Does it have a built in stop? 

Your diagram seems like it is a bit excessive, and I don't have a full understanding as to why you are using the relays you are using.  What's the point of using the timer relays with the relay latch?  One seems like it would cancel the other out.  Also, I think the momentary out relay will mess things up - I would eliminate it and just use the (-) when on output to do what you need to do.  Since you haven't gave too much information about the application and keep throwing in new requirements it's hard to say what will or won't work.

My assumption when you said exhaust valve was something like a solenoid valve - as long as you hold votage on it it is open and when you remove voltage it closes.  What type of valve are you working with?

Kevin Pierson
lexelite 
Copper - Posts: 82
Copper spacespace
Joined: October 16, 2005
Posted: February 23, 2009 at 9:51 AM / IP Logged  
I try not too provide too many unnecessary details as it only makes things more confusion. Unfortunately, through the Q&A process more details come to light, which ironically enough makes things more confusing.
Go figure.
Since noone else is chiming in here KPierson, I am taking this to a PM for a more one-on-one explanation.
Thanks.
lexelite 
Copper - Posts: 82
Copper spacespace
Joined: October 16, 2005
Posted: February 23, 2009 at 10:29 AM / IP Logged  
I sent a PM but didn't see it in my outbox. Let me know if you didnt get the PM KPierson.
Thanks.
KPierson 
Platinum - Posts: 3,527
Platinum spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: April 14, 2005
Location: Ohio, United States
Posted: February 23, 2009 at 12:40 PM / IP Logged  
Sorry, my inbox was full - I didn't get it.
Kevin Pierson
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