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narrow bandpass xover with zobel?


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DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: August 13, 2008 at 11:29 PM / IP Logged  

Without knowing what specific drivers you are using it is difficult to suggest Xover points, but I completely agree with the above analysis  that your system is far too complex, and that the Xover points you are now using were poorly chosen.  Unless the choices of frequency points were driven by the limitations of your drivers, they are not good ones.  First, get rid of the 2.5" mid-high drivers and reduce the system to a 4-way.  Use tweeters that you can cross at 4KHz or as low as 2KHz . Next, your subwoofer LP should be more like 80Hz and the woofers covering the band between 80 and about 240Hz.  Mid should cover about 240 up to your tweet.  1500 Hz is probably the last place you want a crossover setting.

If your problem is in your active crossover, replace it.  Legacy is crap anyway so almost anything else you buy will be better.  Active filtering will be far more precise, easier to control, and cheaper than trying to build a high-quality complex 4-way passive network.  A 5-way passive filter with the steep slopes you are describing would cost probably $300 each to construct properly.

And in most cases, if the passive crossover is properly designed there is no real need for Zobel networks.  And certainly actives do not need them.

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haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: August 14, 2008 at 1:04 AM / IP Logged  
I agree with nearly everything said so far, with the exception of using iron core inductors. NEVER use an iron core in an audio circuit. Hysteresis distortion is very audible and quite nasty... If necessary, and if BENT on a passive system, use larger gauge inductors, to overcome the losses that are inevitable in inductors of that size.
Also, I'll stop you (hopefully) from using electrolytic caps. Another bad choice you can make. OK in the woofer circuit, they MIGHT be acceptable in a mid circuit, but I recommend a poly or better "bypass" cap to improve their transient capability. NEVER use them in a tweeter circuit.
Three-way is as far as I would ever go in a door. Ever. In a home system, I even prefer two way. The fewer the drivers, the better.
I chose varying manufacturers drivers in my system, but my system (I will admit) is atypical (for a home system - VERY atypical for a car system). For example, my mids carry the brunt of the reproduction in my car, running from 200Hz to 4K. I knew what I wanted. I came up with a design, then I figured on my crossover points based on the -3dB points (on a polar plot), then I chose my drivers to fit the desired crossover points.
I HEARTILY agree with avoiding a (especially passive) crossover point within the vocal band - your desired 1.5K right smack in the middle of it... <shudder> Off axis (which you are VERY much in a car) and unequal path lengths which are also inevitable, that is a VERY ill-advised crossover point. Very. Not to mention the HORRIBLE beaming that a 8" will be doing in the drastic off-axis situation you will be in. An 8" woofer will be a good 12 to 18dB down by 45°. ON AXIS, you can probably be OK, but you can't get that in a car. An 8" to a 5" at 1.5K WILL exhibit terrible sound power, EZPECIALLY with such a steep crossover.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
audiocableguy 
Copper - Posts: 630
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Joined: January 27, 2003
Location: Idaho, United States
Posted: August 14, 2008 at 2:21 AM / IP Logged  
Ok, I went there with the Iron core. Couldn't find a 8mh in an air core.
If one was available from PE I would guess $75? The difference between the Electrolytic vs. the Solen Metal Poly is $59 each. My direction was toward how cost ineffective the x-over idea is.
Does anyone other than Morel offer a 8" comp set?
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: August 14, 2008 at 8:18 AM / IP Logged  
Here's an 8 mH... narrow bandpass xover with zobel? - Page 2 -- posted image. And only $24 each!
Madisound has Goertz Foil Inductors, too. You can get to 8mH with those... At a cost of ONLY $170.00 per side!
Oh, sure... 1.6 ohms DCR, but who's counting!?! LOL (Just bein' a butthead...) However, if I were the one making the choice, I'd take DCR loss over hysteresis distortion ANYDAY.
meicalnissyen, what we are all trying to tell you is that if you REALLY want that complex a system, by the time you spend enough money on passive parts, you could have spent all that change on a really nice active crossover. Granted, there is VERY likely additional complexity and cost in more amps, more wire, tweaking time... But you will end up with FAR better results for your car. I've done it, with an all active three way system in my doors, it wasn't easy, but my efforts (IMO) are rewarded every time I sit down.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: August 14, 2008 at 8:30 AM / IP Logged  

For 8mh you almost have to use a steel core inductor or order a custom (or make it yourself.)  Might be better to rethink the Xover topography and not need it.  I've used steel cores in low-cost systems but only in woofers,  I agree to never use electrolytic caps, you can always hear them.

Quart used to offer an 8" 3-way set, and I remember installing one from some off-brand label like Laser or something once.

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DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: August 14, 2008 at 9:16 PM / IP Logged  
Hmm, the OP must not have liked hearing these answers.  Oh well, maybe someone learned something from the exercise.
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DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: August 17, 2008 at 2:25 PM / IP Logged  
I just listened to a set of DLS Iridium components with 8" woofers driven by Genesis amplification.  VERY nice. 
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haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: August 17, 2008 at 7:10 PM / IP Logged  
For a Kilobuck, I would HOPE so... narrow bandpass xover with zobel? - Page 2 -- posted image.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
DYohn 
Moderator - Posts: 10,741
Moderator spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: August 17, 2008 at 9:29 PM / IP Logged  
Plus it was in a new Jaguar.  Sometimes you do get what you pat for...narrow bandpass xover with zobel? - Page 2 -- posted image.
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meicalnissyen 
Member - Posts: 10
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Joined: April 27, 2008
Location: Florida, United States
Posted: August 18, 2008 at 8:27 AM / IP Logged  
DYohn wrote:
Hmm, the OP must not have liked hearing these answers. Oh well, maybe someone learned something from the exercise.
Not at all!!
Daddy taught me that while I'm talkin, I ain't learnin !!
I GREATLY appreciate this input
And now I have more specific Q's
regarding the 8" woofers flat on the deck, sealed 0.9cf enclosures extending into the trunk: by off axis, are we refering to the driver bouncing off a curved, angled piece of glass instead of being angled toward my leather recliner and residing in a carpeted room??
I dunno how to fix that, much, a car is a car
I have been listening to the discussion carefully, and realize now I have been borrowing trouble and not stepping back to think
THANK YOU
I cannot drop much bucks (more) into this but I can use what I have much more correctly.
The Xover points I take firmly to heart, with that in mind, how high can I run the woofer ? can I cross it at 4K , and make this a 2 way (plus sub) system??
I am using this driver:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-312
it claims 45~7K
another thought, with my cd5444, the front and rear outs will not see freqs over the nonfader set point, correct???
That being true, I don't need all these expensive chokes we have been debating,   and the issue becomes simply how low the 8" can go without gettin hit by the bump in the enclosure response curve. choices in the head are: 63,125, and 200   AND,... if it can run flat, high enough that I can put in decent tweeters and go two way or if I need to have a mid bass driver set.
with most tweeters saying they go down to 2K, ... will a 2nd order crossed at 4K keep them safe? and would I reverse the tweet polarity to keep phase correct in that setup?
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