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best way to face 4 subs


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soundnsecurity 
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Joined: November 10, 2008
Location: Louisiana, United States
Posted: February 17, 2009 at 9:22 AM / IP Logged  
moparfan1234 wrote:

soundnsecurity wrote:
try this, put all 4 subs back in and wire one box backwards and see what that does.

really i would think that would make the 2nd set wired backwords botum out in the magnet. i will try it here in a few i gota go real fast and hook up this kids system. any more ideas i can try if that dont work? what way should i face them wiring them like that?

its ok, they wont bottom out just by reversing the phase of both subs in the same box. and besides im not asking you to leave it that way, this is just an experiment to try to figure out whats going on. just hook them up like you had it when you said they were canceling out, and then reverse the wires on one of the boxes. if it gets louder then that is your problem. if it stays the same then i would pull the subs out of the box and check their wiring one at a time to make sure all of the subs are wired exactly the same way. if even just one sub is wired backwards it will throw off everything else.
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: February 17, 2009 at 9:56 AM / IP Logged  
Good call, SnS. This is what I was going to suggest. You simply have one set wired backwards, I'm willing to bet.
As an option to "reversing the leads on one set", when you put the second set in, disconnect the OTHER set. Does your bass return? There is your problem. One box has the woofers wired backwards inside the box.
Additionally, it won't matter WHAT the car is, four 12's will NOT cancel each other out, unless there is something wired backwards. If all is wired correctly, you cannot get ANYTHING other than a (roughly) 6dB gain. At those wavelengths, EVERYTHING is a pressure wave in pretty much ANY car.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
moparfan1234 
Copper - Posts: 59
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 16, 2009
Location: Nebraska, United States
Posted: February 17, 2009 at 10:27 AM / IP Logged  

so is that why they make a phase switch on an amp is when you run 4 subs you can run 2 back words? i mean is that the way every one has to wire a 4 sub system? i rechecked the wireing there all wired right. (im normaly prity good at geting them wired right the first time) i color code every wire so theres no mix ups.

like i said befor i have never done a 4 sub setup in an SUV most people i have ever known just ran 2 biger and or higher power subs. makes me feel kinda dumb having to ask these kind of qestions im normaly the go to guy but i guess an old dog like me dont know every thing lol

87 ramcharger eclipse CD5000 2 15" memphis M3 kenwood 900rms mono amps
99 dodge cummins diesel eclipse CD4000 1 12" memphis Mclass 800rms audiobuhn amp
moparfan1234 
Copper - Posts: 59
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 16, 2009
Location: Nebraska, United States
Posted: February 17, 2009 at 10:54 AM / IP Logged  
ok i also checked them with a 9v battery just incase factory labled them wrong but they all check out right.
87 ramcharger eclipse CD5000 2 15" memphis M3 kenwood 900rms mono amps
99 dodge cummins diesel eclipse CD4000 1 12" memphis Mclass 800rms audiobuhn amp
soundnsecurity 
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Posted: February 17, 2009 at 11:48 AM / IP Logged  
the phase knob on an amp is for competitors who run massive amounts of subs from front to back. this lets them adjust for subs in different positions so that they can get maximum output at a certain spot where the mic/sensor is to be placed. but, the phase knob is next to useless in a normal setup because it doesn't make that big of a difference.
you shouldn't feel dumb because this is a real problem. something is got to be wrong if you lose output by adding 2 more subs. they are the same make and model subwoofers aren't they? do those amps have a phase switch? if so, are they set the same? are both of your amps set exactly the same?
moparfan1234 
Copper - Posts: 59
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 16, 2009
Location: Nebraska, United States
Posted: February 17, 2009 at 12:50 PM / IP Logged  

soundnsecurity wrote:
the phase knob on an amp is for competitors who run massive amounts of subs from front to back. this lets them adjust for subs in different positions so that they can get maximum output at a certain spot where the mic/sensor is to be placed. but, the phase knob is next to useless in a normal setup because it doesn't make that big of a difference.
you shouldn't feel dumb because this is a real problem. something is got to be wrong if you lose output by adding 2 more subs. they are the same make and model subwoofers aren't they? do those amps have a phase switch? if so, are they set the same? are both of your amps set exactly the same?

yes there the same subs bought all 4 brand new last week built both boxs the same only diff is the amps by 50 watts witch i wouldnt think would make any diff if nether amp is pushing there max power. the kenwood amp has a phase switch is set at 0 and the alpine dont have one. both amps set at 80hz the kenwood is set half way up and no mater how the alpine is set it dont make any diff just turning it up makes it sound worse.  i all ways start ajusting my amps from the lowest they go and slowly turn them up. the RCA leads run from the head unit to the kenwood then from the kenwood to the alpine so it all should have the same signal. i even called memphis them selves and and the most they could come up with is run all 4 subs off one amp and see what happens. but then i would have buy anether one and still not be sure if that would fix it.

im gona go try and hook all 4 subs to just the kenwood and see what happens its supos to be 1 ohm stable but i dont need it cranked all the way up to tell if it helped or not. if that dont help in totaly lost. there all wired right i have checked so many times now its not even funny lol

87 ramcharger eclipse CD5000 2 15" memphis M3 kenwood 900rms mono amps
99 dodge cummins diesel eclipse CD4000 1 12" memphis Mclass 800rms audiobuhn amp
moparfan1234 
Copper - Posts: 59
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 16, 2009
Location: Nebraska, United States
Posted: February 17, 2009 at 1:11 PM / IP Logged  
well the subs are wired right in the boxs all 4 hooked to just the kenwood and it pounded and i hardly turned it up its gota be in the amps them selves
87 ramcharger eclipse CD5000 2 15" memphis M3 kenwood 900rms mono amps
99 dodge cummins diesel eclipse CD4000 1 12" memphis Mclass 800rms audiobuhn amp
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: February 17, 2009 at 1:15 PM / IP Logged  
REVERSE THE SPEAKER LEADS ON ONE BOX OR AMP IN THE CAR... trust us on this one. If you hook all four speakers to the Alpine, you'll get the SAME result as you just got by connecting them to the Kenwood!! You are dismissing a possible solution without even trying it. If you don't want to go to all the wiring trouble, flip the damn switch on the Kenwood! Have you even tried that? Also, on the Kenwood RCA outputs... Are you SURE they are just "pass-thru" or are they high-passed on a crossover of some sort? Dude... I'm tellin' ya... It's a phase issue, almost guaranteed!
Seriously. Try it. Just because you are connected positive to positive throughout the system, not every amplifier will be "phase correct" in it's output. Some amplifiers invert their outputs from the input signal. It's referenced to "absolute phase", and if one amp inverts, but the other doesn't, (a VERY good possibility, considering the amps are different brands!) you can experience EXACTLY what you are experiencing.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
moparfan1234 
Copper - Posts: 59
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 16, 2009
Location: Nebraska, United States
Posted: February 17, 2009 at 1:40 PM / IP Logged  

haemphyst wrote:
REVERSE THE SPEAKER LEADS ON ONE BOX OR AMP IN THE CAR... trust us on this one. If you hook all four speakers to the Alpine, you'll get the SAME result as you just got by connecting them to the Kenwood!! You are dismissing a possible solution without even trying it. If you don't want to go to all the wiring trouble, flip the damn switch on the Kenwood! Have you even tried that? Also, on the Kenwood RCA outputs... Are you SURE they are just "pass-thru" or are they high-passed on a crossover of some sort? Dude... I'm tellin' ya... It's a phase issue, almost guaranteed!
Seriously. Try it. Just because you are connected positive to positive throughout the system, not every amplifier will be "phase correct" in it's output. Some amplifiers invert their outputs from the input signal. It's referenced to "absolute phase", and if one amp inverts, but the other doesn't, (a VERY good possibility, considering the amps are different brands!) you can experience EXACTLY what you are experiencing.

dont worry i trusted you man i just needed some one to come home and help carry the 2nd sub box out the door and i had to rewire the alpine amp because i unhooked all wires to the alpine. as you was typing your post i was out hooking up the alpine agan and hooking it back words just like you said. yep you are right they are backwords in the amps them selves. i never new they did that but since you said it i thought well it really could be. i feel its dumb but thats the way it is.

thanks a millon bud

now witch way should i face them now i have them working right? facing up is the ezyest so i can keep my back seat in. also witch amp should i run all the time backwords?

87 ramcharger eclipse CD5000 2 15" memphis M3 kenwood 900rms mono amps
99 dodge cummins diesel eclipse CD4000 1 12" memphis Mclass 800rms audiobuhn amp
moparfan1234 
Copper - Posts: 59
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 16, 2009
Location: Nebraska, United States
Posted: February 17, 2009 at 2:15 PM / IP Logged  

well now after all this i think  the 4 facing up really ant much louder then the 2 facing back. when i had the back seat out and all 4 of them facing back it was alot louder. idk now im trying to deside if its worth all 4 in there or not because i need the back seat so i cant leve all 4 facing back but talking to people down town with 4 subs vs 2 the 2 would seem more amazing to them. you know where they say wow and thats only 2 subs vs well duh its that loud theres 4 of them. 

thanks agan

87 ramcharger eclipse CD5000 2 15" memphis M3 kenwood 900rms mono amps
99 dodge cummins diesel eclipse CD4000 1 12" memphis Mclass 800rms audiobuhn amp
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