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dual a/b amp vs mono d amp


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No1stunna 
Copper - Posts: 47
Copper spacespace
Joined: May 18, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: March 15, 2009 at 1:22 PM / IP Logged  

Like I said in my past post, I haven't  heard the new class d's using B+O icepower so I cannot comment on that, however I and many other people prefer the sound of A/B as there is a distinguishable difference between classes when comparing all but possibly the newest higher end class d's. If it was such a black and white issue, then every audio forum on the net wouldn't be plagued by this question. summing it up to which class is better is pointless anyway, most evidence of  which sounds better is based on user judgement/opinion and everyones ear and taste is different. The low end of either class is a disgrace and comparisons are not cut and dry. Only your ear can ba the judge, so the question is how much do you want to debate about it. I think any class d with the exception of the newest ones lack a little bit but you'll never decide which to buy if you are waiting for a "right " answer.

The original post was asking for input on which one is better and there is no right answer, go to a audio shop (not the big box stores) and listen to both classes on the same subs so you can decide for yourself. Or just pick the best one that fits your budget. The best amp will only sound as good as the rest of your setup will allow it to anyway so doon't fret over it too much B/C it's a vicious cycle.

DYohn summed it up pretty well, between the newest amps of any reasonable quality you probably won't notice a difference in fidelity in classes. IMO when it comes to the older class d's I don't think it's even debatable that A/Bs sound better....So are you asking about new technology or will you be buying an older amp?

 
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: March 16, 2009 at 11:33 PM / IP Logged  
stunna... First, let me apologize, I could have worded that better. That being said, "anus" is one of my defining characteristics.
One thing I will often do, even at the risk of hurting someone's feelings is "call them" when a generalization is being flung about - I don't like generalizations. dual a/b amp vs mono d amp - Page 2 -- posted image. There is FAR too much information available for anybody with internet access to spew those! dual a/b amp vs mono d amp - Page 2 -- posted image.
Secondly, I wasn't using expensive brand names to tout the superiority of today's Class D technology, I was using expensive names, because thay got that expensive way BECAUSE OF HOW THEY SOUND. I know there are more expensive names than Spectron, but I did qualify that claim with a "watt-for-watt" clause. If Class D sounds THAT good, so as to drive such names as Bang/Olufsen (their invention, so it stands to reason...) and Spectron and Rowland and Eclipse and Alpine (in their high-end lines, at least) to use ICEPower exclusively, then it must be pretty good (and in my experience, it IS that good).
Also, PROPERLY implemented Class D is not less expensive than Class A/B, it is in fact significantly MORE expensive. Compliance really has nothing to do with it, rather it is simply another step in the technology, much like SATA drives in computing: it's just the next step. Faster, but not (necessarily) less expensive. I'll grant you, it does GET to that point, but initially, it isn't.
Here's a link to the build of my system, almost two years ago... I only include this information so you can see that I am completely SERIOUS about sound quality, and I don't EVER joke about it! It's really just a "point of view starter". :P If you don't want to read the whole thing, here's a quick copy of my review of the Alpine PDX4.150:
haemphyst wrote:
Oh... My... God...
These PDX amps are INCREDIBLE. I haven't put them in the car yet, but I needed to see what I was in for. I pulled one out to my living room, with my 100A power supply, and proceeded to run one of the 4.150s through it's paces.
Bridged mode: What can I say? Powerful, musical, dynamic. I was able to wrinkle my 52 inch ribbons full length, with "Kiss the Girl" from the Little Mermaid soundtrack (don't knock it, it's an AWESOME reference recording) which I have discovered though previous experimenting happens at approximately 280 to 300 watts. My usual amplification for the ribbons is an NAD 216THX, rated at 220 watts per channel into the 4 ohm resistive load presented by the ribbons, and it can't wrinkle 'em. I heard no sense of strain, just music. My ears couldn't take any more, and I heard no clipping or excessive distortion. What distortion I DID hear was probably from my CERTAINLY non-optimal room, and all of it's terrible reflections, and/or my ears complaining.
Stereo mode: Even better. I know... but it WAS! I ran all 4 drivers in the system off that amp in 4 channel mode, using the built-in crossover. The highs were even smoother... The mids were even MORE liquid. MILES ahead of the NADs. The bass... oh, the BASS! I didn't try that (running bass) in bridged mode, but in stereo, it was deep, controlled, accurate bass... FAR better control (even with 1/3 the power) than the Adcom GFA565 powering the woofer section right now. I have never HEARD those systems sound that good, LITERALLY!!! All I could say was "WOW! I mean WOW!" Are the SURE that it's only 150W x 4? The sound was FAR more powerful than I would have imagined, especially from such (relatively) modest power output, and even MORE amazing was the fact that it did all this with my painfully inefficient ribbons!
The crossover and pre-amp section are very clean, and perfectly serviceable... They do an admirable job at their jobs. The crossover has a WIDE range of settings, I want to say it's 30 Hz to 400(?)Hz. PLENTY of range for most systems. Anybody contemplating full-range digital owes it to themselves to get a look at these amplifiers! Alpine and B&O have teamed up in an over-the-top fashion, and hit it out of the park!
Damn, Bob! You gotta dump the JL stuff in your car and get the PDX's going in there! No messin' around here... I'm completely serious man!
So, really... Just please accept my apology? dual a/b amp vs mono d amp - Page 2 -- posted image.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
No1stunna 
Copper - Posts: 47
Copper spacespace
Joined: May 18, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: March 17, 2009 at 9:23 AM / IP Logged  

Apology accepted, my mistake was assuming the newest class d's were just like the older ones...The newest D I had was an alpine mrd-m605 and before that it was a  vr1000d so I cannot speak accurately about the new technology and  I did generalize which is unfair to any audio topic like this.dual a/b amp vs mono d amp - Page 2 -- posted image.

Nice setup by the waydual a/b amp vs mono d amp - Page 2 -- posted image. 

flogger11 
Member - Posts: 31
Member spacespace
Joined: March 18, 2009
Location: Wisconsin, United States
Posted: March 23, 2009 at 8:25 AM / IP Logged  
Class D is "ok". A/B FOR SURE SOUNDS BETTER.  And anybody that doesnt think damping factor doesnt matter hasnt done an A/B comparison of an average or poorly damped amp  vs a good one.  When I went to my ZPA the first thing I noticed was CONTROL.  My sub has a touch more quickness and control vs any other amp I have run. Yes, DAMPING FACTOR MATTERS, especially on a sub. The problem when comparing ratings is most amp manufactors dont list WHAT FREQUENCY their damping factor is rated at.  You can have a damping factor of 1000 at 1000hz, yet only have a damping factor of 300 at 100hz.  The reason most amp designers rate their damping factor at 1000hz instead of 100hz is an amp has a much easier time staying in control at 1000hz vs 100.  Damping factor is the amps ability to control a speaker, how fast can it start/stop its power to a speak.  Class D has wiz poor control, thats just the way it is.  We havent even touched on the power switching problems inherent in a class d design, another time.  The bottom line is Class D is fine if you need outragous power and dont want to make the financial commitment to your charging system, however a properly set up A/B with the same power rating will CHEW UP any Class D. Why do you think A/B costs so much more than a Class D amp of the same power? You get what you pay for, sorry. Class D, yuck.
ragsports 
Copper - Posts: 192
Copper spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: March 17, 2008
Location: Michigan, United States
Posted: March 23, 2009 at 8:44 AM / IP Logged  
Flogger  You ARE wrong!  Did you not read the rest of the post? 
flogger11 
Member - Posts: 31
Member spacespace
Joined: March 18, 2009
Location: Wisconsin, United States
Posted: March 23, 2009 at 9:06 AM / IP Logged  

ragsports wrote:
Flogger  You ARE wrong!  Did you not read the rest of the post? 

Nope, Im  not wrong, but thats ok, you guys just keep running that class d stuff, it doesnt hurt my feelings.

haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: March 23, 2009 at 12:59 PM / IP Logged  
Dude... You've been fooled. Seriously. I'm thinking Dr. Bose himself told you it was important. How close am I?
MATHEMATICALLY PROVEN to make little to no difference, EXCEPT in all but the most extreme of cases. I, too, used to be of the belief that it made more difference than it does.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
flogger11 
Member - Posts: 31
Member spacespace
Joined: March 18, 2009
Location: Wisconsin, United States
Posted: March 23, 2009 at 1:17 PM / IP Logged  

haemphyst wrote:
Dude... You've been fooled. Seriously. I'm thinking Dr. Bose himself told you it was important. How close am I?
MATHEMATICALLY PROVEN to make little to no difference, EXCEPT in all but the most extreme of cases. I, too, used to be of the belief that it made more difference than it does.

You have to agree, all variables being the same, an amp with a higher damping factor is going to have more control over a speaker, therefore making it a better amp.  I am not saying it is the "end all" spec, and I agree it can be a subtle difference, but the diff (on a subwoofer at least) IS audible to a trained ear.  IMHO of course.  LOL! 

flogger11 
Member - Posts: 31
Member spacespace
Joined: March 18, 2009
Location: Wisconsin, United States
Posted: March 23, 2009 at 1:20 PM / IP Logged  
and haemphyst, who the heck is dr. bose? the guy that invented "no highs no lows they call us bose" speakers? ;)      I learned a great deal of my knowledge from a very well educated, experienced gentleman by the name of Steve Davis. Thanks Steve!
audiocableguy 
Copper - Posts: 630
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 27, 2003
Location: Idaho, United States
Posted: March 23, 2009 at 1:43 PM / IP Logged  
"Why do you think A/B costs so much more than a Class D amp of the same power?" Could it be the reduction in heatsink/cooling requirements? Could it be the new surface mount devices with higher tolerances? Could it be Class D requires less components to create the same values?
Class D is the wave of the future like it or not. . . I have heard the Alpine PDX and would have zero problem replacing an A/B amp with it.
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