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led’s and car alarm


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oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: February 04, 2010 at 5:07 PM / IP Logged  
dereileak wrote:
what is the lowest voltage a led can work without the power going out?
P presume you mean the LEDs extinguishing?
That's a bit tricky....
Using the specs from that mp3car link, the LW P4SG LED has a Vf (voltage) range of 2.9-3.7V with a nominal voltage of (about) 3.2V.
(And those voltages may be pulses too - but if they light up when pulsed, they will definitely light up with DC.)
LEDs still operate with very low current - eg 1mA and lower.
As someone wrote recently, a LED with nominal 150 Ohm resistor still glowed dimly with a 5 k-Ohm resistor.
(Hence why a resistor is good for stabilisation - ie, resitir voltae drops reduce with reducing current (hence keeping LEDs at a higher relative voltage) and increase at higher currents (hence reducing the LEDs relative voltage to the supply voltage.)
You need to use the specs etc.
Or use the method clever people use - suck it and see.
Run a string or few of your LEDs in various combinations and see if it matters, or what blows.
After all, even if you have the skills to used the specs, do you really trust them?? (Hey - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it! LOL)
But the answer is that the LEDs will extinguish when their voltage drops below their threshold voltage - maybe 2.5V for a 3.3V LED etc.
Keep in mind that the model for a LED is a zenor diode with series resistance, or a battery (with ideal diode) and series resistance. But that zero or battery voltage is usually a bit above the threhold or cut-off voltage because models are usually for normal operation ranges - maybe 5-10mA or 1-10mA.
dereileak 
Copper - Posts: 113
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 29, 2010
Location: Minnesota, United States
Posted: February 04, 2010 at 9:24 PM / IP Logged  
thanks for the replay man, I can't wait to get them, if I do add a switch, can I just get a 2 prong switch that stops the positive charge, or does it need a 3rd prong to ground at that point? cause I do want a switch to manually turn them off and keep them off if I need to, also what would you use to put 36 LEDs' on, I was thinking a plastic ruler and just soldering them on there, but you have any better solutions to make it super nice? its 2 things of 36 LED's
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dereileak 
Copper - Posts: 113
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 29, 2010
Location: Minnesota, United States
Posted: February 04, 2010 at 9:59 PM / IP Logged  
meant reply, not replay, aha ahhahah a
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oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: February 04, 2010 at 10:19 PM / IP Logged  
Just an on-off switch will do - anywhere it interrupts the current.
If you use a relay, the break its solenoid (86 or 85).
Otherwise the LED's link to gnd, or between the +12V and the LEDs.
Breaking to ground may be easier as one end is "just" as chassis/body connection. (And - just like battery isolation switches, it is far less hazardous.)
As to mounting - I'm not the one to ask - I would use fluoro tubes for that reason - unless it needed bending.
If they are to be under the seat, I am curious as to who would see it, and if - under those circumstances - they'd even care. (Show judges excepeted - they'd always care!)
dereileak 
Copper - Posts: 113
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 29, 2010
Location: Minnesota, United States
Posted: February 04, 2010 at 10:42 PM / IP Logged  
I am doing it just for my own personal coolness, ha ha, I am going to mount them under the feet area of the driver (me) and the passenger, it will look cool, and the relay will allow me to turn it on with my alarm remote. So as for the switch, I can put it in the ground wire, and if it interrupts ground them it will stop the circuit? My only worry is this, and I do not know if I am right, if I break the curcuit and the relay is sending 12v to the leds, will that cause any issues, or does it stop all electricity going to the leds and nothing will burn up, like wires burning up, also I found a multimeter on ebay, what do you think of it, I need it for the car alarm remote start install link to DMM, is that one junk, or is it half way decent, I will probably only use it for the install, but I want one that will last a few years if I do any other electrical work :P, btw you have been a great help!!!!
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oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: February 04, 2010 at 11:51 PM / IP Logged  
Why is it eGay links rarely work??? (LOL!)
Yep - that DMM is ok, but you can get cheaper (at least here in Oz).
I have a similar DMM but that includes a backlight for the display - very handy when broken down in shark infested deserts at night.
The hold is useful at some VERY rare times (for me). But it is probably more of a pain when I DO NOT realise it's on... (Why tf is it displaying that funny reading - low batteries? faulty leads? .... 5 minutes later "damned bluddy HOLD button. Again!" And that's ME - a clever dork with lots of experience!!)
May shops now have cheap $10 DMMs with much the same features (except the Hold, and backlighting).
They typically seem to be yellow, and unlike that eGay unit....
- include battery(s)
- include transistor testing (gains etc) (which I am yet to use - despite building a tranny tester eons ago).
I have several of those as spares and presents. I've seen them down to $3 each (without leads).
Apart from the usual features, the main one to look out for is the "continuity tester with buzzer" (audible continuity) - the "sound waves" as shown on your linked DMM on the RHS above "200" (Ohms) (at about the 2:30 position).
That might be trivial, but one of my cheap $10 DMMs has it as well as my (then $26, now ~$20) favorite backlit DMM with its bluddy $%#!&&*^! Hold button, and it comes in so handy when checking cables (don't look up, just keep looking at pins and listen).    
But I wouldn't pay much extra for it.
BTW - try to get spare fuses. They are usually 250mA M205 (20x5mm) - but check. Eventually you will connect wrong and blow its fuse.
And NEVER connect an ammeter (current range) ACROSS anything (specially caps & batteries!) - always "insert" it in series with the load.
And NEVER take resistance measurements on a powered or charged circuit - the DMM's battery supplies power to test resistance - ot won't like getting power from outside. That includes continuity and diode testing.
And DON'T under-estimate test lights. Whilst perhaps of limited value for testing forward voltage drops, current etc, they can be much less complicated and even safer to use than a DMM.
And they can do some neat test things.... (Yes Howie!)
And they are cheap.
And you can have a buzzer in parallel....
And opening an electric circuit isn't like stopping water - there is no hammering effect - the electric current merely stops.
[At least for your circuit - it's different if we talk about inductive circuits like ignition coils (they're shocking!), or opening a circuit with several thousand DC amps (they explode!), but even opening a relay or switch to a 3,000 amplifier is no problem. And your circuit is what watts - 10W?]
Electricity must travel in a loop - ie, out battery+ through switch and circuit back to battery- & through the battery.
To stop a "circuit", just break that loop anywhere.
But make sure there are no bypasses or leaks.
EG - if you switch open one of your 3 or 4 LED strings, it will extinguish, but all the other strings will still be lit.
If you break the 12V to seat#1 but not seat#2, seat#2 will still be lit.
If you break the supply from battery+, none will light.
If you bypass that battery+ break with a resistor (aka, a "leak"), the the LEDs will get current & voltage, and maybe enough to light them (if the resistor is not too big, and assuming the relay or switch is closed).
I think you should have a search for some basic electric tuts.
They may have been too "urrghh!" before, But I reckon now, you will click the odd "arrr fudge - now I get it" etc.
Here on 12volt are some EXCELLENT tuts (tutorials) - eg - see "Basics" way up top-left under the12volt.com banner.
www.allaboutcircuits.com/ is another goodie - see Volume 1 - DC. (I must tell them that their "power factor" is wrong - but that's AC crap....)
And try to skim a lot and just read the easy bits rather than trying to understand each bit.
Do the easy, fun, or rewarding stuff first. The hard stuff eventually makes sense "without even trying".
The best way to learn is often tactical - learn only what you need to solve your problem. (Be aware of other vague things mentioned, but review them later.)
The solve your problem - ie, design or implement.
But then review (whether before building or after, or after it blows up) and the other vague things may then make sense, or tempt you....
Electrics & electronics is no different to most other disciplines, you need to understand everything before understanding anything....
Or am I thinking of microprocessors and programming LOL!
(Reminds me of "I want everything louder than everything else".)
But once you get an edge somewhere, you just keep expanding.
And making all the "common sense" mistakes we all do.
(Remember - common sense is what you have until you know better - and that's the new common sense, until next time!)
So forgive the ramble, but that's what you get when you say silly things like "you have been a great help". LOL! (Thanks for that!).
But some of your questions & answers are VERY basic things.
Others are not - like LED voltages & effects. (You may have seen in one of the links I posted just how wrong an "experts" common sense can be! It was easily solved, but the usual ego saving techniques prevented any getting of wisdom. And that merely involved LEDs! Wait till you do batteries!)
The point is, after this you too may well be an expert in how to set up these LEDs - and know more than me about it.
dereileak 
Copper - Posts: 113
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 29, 2010
Location: Minnesota, United States
Posted: February 05, 2010 at 11:24 AM / IP Logged  
WOW MAN, HOLY COW, GREAT INFO, you know your stuff defiantly, man thanks for all they help, you are an expert at this stuff!! I will defiantly check out those tuts, an place online where I can get a Multimeter cheaper? or like a store that I would have here?
Viper 5902 - Ordered
Kicker Dual CVX 15's - Installed
Kicker ZX 1500.1 Amp - Installed
KPierson 
Platinum - Posts: 3,527
Platinum spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: April 14, 2005
Location: Ohio, United States
Posted: February 05, 2010 at 11:32 AM / IP Logged  
I would highly recomend a Craftsman meter.  Don't get the cheapest one they sell, but there is one around $25 that does auto ranging DC and frequency.  Frequency is a great tool for finding tach wires with remote starts.
Kevin Pierson
dereileak 
Copper - Posts: 113
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 29, 2010
Location: Minnesota, United States
Posted: February 05, 2010 at 11:54 AM / IP Logged  
where can I get that one at, lowes? walmart?
Viper 5902 - Ordered
Kicker Dual CVX 15's - Installed
Kicker ZX 1500.1 Amp - Installed
KPierson 
Platinum - Posts: 3,527
Platinum spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: April 14, 2005
Location: Ohio, United States
Posted: February 05, 2010 at 1:12 PM / IP Logged  
Craftsman is available at Sears and possibly Kmart.
Kevin Pierson
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