the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
icon

removing factory amps, weak alternator


Post ReplyPost New Topic
< Prev Topic Next Topic >
mustanglife 
Member - Posts: 27
Member spacespace
Joined: February 11, 2009
Location: Tennessee, United States
Posted: February 01, 2010 at 12:43 PM / IP Logged  

I have a 2003 Mustang GT with the factory Mach 460 installed. With a Pioneer FH-P8000BT Double Din head unit. http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/In-Dash/CD-Players/FH-P8000BT

The mach 460 has 4 6x8's and 4 2.5 inch tweeters and the amplifier setup in car is as below

Ford Mid/Low-Pass Amp - 2x85w = 170w Max. 2x43.5w = 85w Nom.

230w / 13v = 17.7 amps Nom. 4 Ohms at 2% THD
460w / 13v = 35.4 amps Max. 4 Ohms at 2% THD

I have aftermarket headlamps and foglights that output a little more than factory. The stock alternator was tested yesterday and is working fine. It is a 110 amp alternator. But the alternator has a 15% Underdrive pulley on it. As its a mustang so I look at performance

I have 2 12 inch Kenwood subs and a 1000 watt kenwood amp. Can't remember the model but its putting out around 450 x 2 rms at 2ohms wired correctly. Factory recommended 8 guage wire with this amp.

So with me removing the 2 factory amps as I listed the specs above, replacing the 15% U/D pulley for the alternator with the stock one and removing the rear speakers. Just going to run 2 full range 6x8's in the front doors. Will this be enough difference to account for the alternator not being able to hang. My voltage drops at night when all lights are on, heat,defrost, radar detector, etc. Sometimes drops to 10.5 -11 mainly at idle.

So in a nutshell 2 85 watt amps will be removed. the 15% U/D pulley will be taken off and replaced back to stock and the 4 tweeters and 2 rear midrange will not be hooked up. This should be enough to make up for that 1000 watt amp on that alternator correct?

On a note, All connections are great, ground is solid and in a unpainted metal spot. Battery is a Napa Legend 75 Month (Don't know specs)

Thanks

Josh

2003 Modded Mustang GT
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: February 01, 2010 at 10:44 PM / IP Logged  
A smaller alternator pulley will increase the alternator's output at low RPM, but it may not increase total power output...
A 110A alternator should put out 110A at some RPM.
110A is (approx):
1320W @12V
1520W @ 13.8V (a common "rated" voltage for car equipment)
1585W @ 14.4V (the normal max long-term battery charging voltage; sometimes used for ratings - eg, audio equipment).
(I'm not saying you will get 1585W@14.4V - it may be limited to its "rated" 1520W, but alternators are a current device, so 1585W is likely less various losses)
So you probably have 1500W available.
But that is at a high enough RPM.
How high? That depends on the alternator. Many don't output near-full output until above 5,000 alternator RPM.
Below that, it's essentially proportional to the RPM above a threshold of (say) 1,000 RPM.   
Using a smaller alternator pulley doesn't increase the TOTAL power output, but it increases the output at low RPM.
But - do Rally cars use smaller pulleys for higher low-RPM output?
No!! Because like most competitions, they run flat out.
They run much higher than the average RPM that alternators were designed for - so Rally & Race cars have larger pulleys to slow down the alternator. (They will destruct if too fast for too long - there is too much back EMF or other gobbledygooky things I've forgotten!)
Hence slower revving V8s may have smaller alternator pulleys than revving 4-cyl engines. (Besides, most V8's don't have the low-RPM torque of my 4 cyl so they can't pull a big alternator pulley LOL!)
Or V8 or competitive alternators may be constructed differently - but usually not - we want one-item-fits-all, so we just swap pulleys.   
So, you need to figure out what power you need on average, and therefore what average RPM you need to supply that (and a bit extra to recharge the battery and make up for various losses).
If you can't supply the power, you need a bigger alternator.
Or you could try a smaller pulley if the alternator isn't revving enough.   
And the best way to know how your system is coping is to fit a voltmeter that monitors your battery. (12.8 or lower means battery power being used; above 13.6V means charging; ~11.8V is a very flat battery!)
forbidden 
Platinum - Posts: 5,352
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: November 01, 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posted: February 02, 2010 at 12:09 AM / IP Logged  

You more than likely still have a insufficient ground in this vehicle. Here is a link for you to read.

https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp~TID~49445~PN~1

If you have a 1000w rms amplifier and it is mounted in the back of the car and you have it running on a 8 gauge line, you are more than likely starving it and placing even more demand on the system. It should be a 4 gauge at the minimum and all power and ground lines under the hood should be upgraded to as large a guage as possible. Electricity is a algebra equation, what you do to one side you must do to the other. Read the link, upgrade the wiring as recommended and then test the system again. If you are still having dimming issues, a larger alternator is going to be in your future.

Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
mustanglife 
Member - Posts: 27
Member spacespace
Joined: February 11, 2009
Location: Tennessee, United States
Posted: February 02, 2010 at 12:59 AM / IP Logged  

The amp is mounted on the rear fold down seat. Its a 03 Mustang GT so its not a very long car at all. The ground is mounted to 1 of the seat belt bolts that I removed a while ago. It was unpainted and is attached to the frame. Its flush and tight and a big bolt as the safety rules for cars with having seat belts. I've been a car enthusiast for a while and know 94-04 Mustangs up and down. There is no other place I can run a 3 foot max ground wire to and from my amp in its position. 3 feet a room leaves very little to work with. The factory amps have a ground connection in the trunk a thin sheet metal piece thats inside the trunk inbetween the quarter panel and trunk molding. But in examination the seat belt bolt is the best spot in that area of a 3 foot radius.

In reference to the 4 gauge minimum I would I have to split up the end of the 4 guage power wires for it to fit at the amp. And I would still have to use a 8 guage connector to attach it to the amp. Wouldn't that be a waste of a 4 guage wire and time?

With lets say removing 170 watts worth of factory amps and only having 2 speakers off of the head unit instead of 4 and placing the stock pulley and rmeoving the 15% U/D pulley not be noticeable ? Or is it all just a waste a time and I should get the bigger alternator wire. high output alternator and optima marine battery (Like the blue look and still dual purpose)

Josh

2003 Modded Mustang GT
forbidden 
Platinum - Posts: 5,352
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: November 01, 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posted: February 02, 2010 at 1:07 AM / IP Logged  
Josh, you really need to read that link I posted. A good ground is not the closest bolt within 3 feet. A good ground is one that measures under 1/2 ohm on the return to the battery. If it is over that limit, you have a bad ground. Read the link and learn from it, apply it to your install and the performance that you are expecting. You will be surprised at the length of the wire in this vehicle. Take a length of string and run it properly from the back to the front, find the hole in the firewall and run it through there as well. Then measure the length, it is going to be close to 16 feet is my guess. The longer the wire is the more resistance it builds, especially if it is a "claimed 8 gauge" wire that has more plastic that copper in it or is an aluminized wire.
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
forbidden 
Platinum - Posts: 5,352
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: November 01, 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posted: February 02, 2010 at 1:12 AM / IP Logged  
Do what is simple first. Make the transfer of current as efficient as you can. Then once you have exhausted those options, then look at the larger alternator / battery. Do the BIG 3 (or 4) upgrade immediately.
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: February 02, 2010 at 3:10 AM / IP Logged  
I agree with forbidden - read that link.
I feel stupid not mentioning the Big3(or4) before - that is always the first step for improvements - but I was pulley fixated.
Do not get a "better battery" - it will not overcome undercharging.
It just takes longer to flatten, and then costs more to replace. (And AGM/VRLA batteries do not like being and staying flattened!)
Besides, for audio purposes, an AGM battery is wasted in the engine bay - it needs to be as close to the amplifier as possible.
Else, instead of wasting money on a cap, get a small AGM battery of equivalent physical size instead - even a 1.2AH AGM (~$20) will usually blast a multi-Farad cap away.
IMO, using 4 guage until the final end 8 guage termination is not a waste - you are still minimising your cable resistance.
IE - 8G is nearly three times the resistance of 4G. So using 4G for all except the final short piece means probably under half the resistance.
Protecting that section for 8G (70A-100A?) solved any problems, but it may be okay to use a up to a 4G rating (135A or above?) if that section is very short and well protected (from shorts lol!), and assuming the short 8G section itself doesn't fuse or get to hot before the protection operates.
[Usually the latter situation is found in minimal resistance systems. EG - for a 100A amp/load, instead of running 6G, a diehard may run 2 parallel 0G (2x250A) for an 8-fold resistance reduction, and terminate using 4G or 6G. They would still use (say) 120A protection at the cable source (battery or alternator). (Hence only one fuse or contactor etc.)]
BTW - cable ratings vary depending on application and aim. And conductor quality.
The gurus hereon can advise better than I.
I aim for voltage drops under 0.5V.
For 100A, that means .005 Ohm (R = V/I).
(Now does that mean 1V total drop being 0.5 through +12V & 0.5V via ground? LOL! I recommend multiple redundant engine-chassis/body ground straps!)   
And FYI - if you do get a 2nd battery, I provide circuits & opinions in several posts including 12volt's adding a second battery.
That method generally assumes a standard main/engine battery with a 2nd auxiliary sealed battery in the cabin or boot/trunk.
mustanglife 
Member - Posts: 27
Member spacespace
Joined: February 11, 2009
Location: Tennessee, United States
Posted: February 02, 2010 at 8:37 AM / IP Logged  

Thanks yall. I've read everything including the links and I'm gonna see what I can do. I do want to add because I didn't emphasize on it in my original post. The voltage drop only happens when the headlights and foglights are on and the stereo is cranked. If the stereo is cranked and no lights on, there is no voltage drop. And if I have the stereo off and the headlights and foglights on there is no voltage drop. Not sure if this changes things or not.

2003 Modded Mustang GT
mustanglife 
Member - Posts: 27
Member spacespace
Joined: February 11, 2009
Location: Tennessee, United States
Posted: February 02, 2010 at 8:51 AM / IP Logged  

The voltage usually stays at 13.5 to 13.7. Stereo cranked no lights on it stays consistant in a 13.2 to 13.7 range. Never higher than 13.7. When the stereo is off and all lights on foglights included it still stays above 13.0. Than when I turn the lights on (headlights,foglights) and crank the stereo after about 5 minutes at idle or 15 minutes of driving the voltage will drop as low as 10.5 to 11.0. To do these driving voltage tests I use my radar detector in the cig lighter which has a built voltage meter. Its seems to be dead on when I expect a voltage drop its dead on. These mustangs won't run higher than 13.7 maybe 13.8 and thats what it reads. I should have mentioned the voltage stuff in my reply above.

I'm still having trouble seeing a ground issue (bad ground) and power wire size problem that is only when my lights are on and stereo cranked high but not when 1 or the other is turned off. Seems if I had a ground or power wire issue that it wouldn't be effected just when I'm running two 37.5 watt foglights and two 55 watt headlamps.

Am I being reasonable or am I being stubborn, but hope my last 2 replies help out a little.

Thanks

Josh

2003 Modded Mustang GT
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: February 02, 2010 at 10:37 AM / IP Logged  
All people are unreasonable. But IMO you are not being stubborn.
Quite the opposite - you have provided info which could be useful. IE - data, facts etc.
It seems certain your alternator is under-powering, but you need to improve (or check) your cabling first - that alone might solve your problem. With modern cars, a cable upgrade is more likely to solve under-power problems.
And get a voltmeter directly across the battery - not from the cig-socket.
Resistance is Futile. (All puns intended.)
Accept the above.
And read on for attempted explanation/s below if you dare.
But warning - it is 100F and 3AM here.
The voltmeter needs to be across the battery - not other circuits.
There could be voltage drops between the battery and the cig-socket, especially when other loads are turned on if they share some cabling (ie, ground, and any +12V common path).
Not that a multimeter is suitable as a permanent voltmeter, but it is a very useful equipment. They are usually way under $20 and you can test voltages, resistance & continuity (fuses, bulbs) etc.
Otherwise there are various voltmeters - in dash analog or digital. I bought a cute in-line unit for accessories (fridges etc) for $20, but butchered it and set it into my dash. I wish it were backlit, but it's fine for now - though I have tape over the last digit; 13.3V is enough digits - no bobble. (See it at ABR-Sidewinder - it's worth it just for the battery "voltage vs charge" diagram at the bottom of the linked page!)
A voltmeter only needs thin wires. They consume stuff all current - even powered meters (like the in-line LCD type linked above) are usually under 10mA - though I do suggest an on-off switch (mine is switched on by an ignition relay).
Your "all-on" voltage drop over time indicates insufficient charging.
This is likely to be an undersized alternator. Or rather, not enough output at the RPM you are doing.
But it could simply be poor cabling.
Traditionally with resistive loads, good cabling would only overcome the undercharging in borderline cases. (If cable resistance was high, the load got less volts hence less current etc.)
But these days due to "constant power loads", the lower the voltage, the higher the current. (eg - assume a 30W HID - that's 2A@15V or 3A@10V). So poor cabling can have a huge effect.
Not that the above matter - the first step should always be to minimise cable/path losses.
Opinion: Optional reading cum ramble follows...
I find it amazing when people know they have bad voltage drops but they get bigger batteries etc.
If that did somehow increase the power to the load, it also increases the losses.
EG - if originally we had 100 Watts of power lost (heat in the cables) and we somehow delivered 50% more power to the load, we'd than have 150W of cable losses.
Maybe that's enough to melt the ground cables. (That's a fun sight - the ground straps melt, the alternator loses its battery reference else there is a big voltage drop across the little remaining engine to chassis (or battery-) connection so the alternator increases its output voltage and then the dash, audio, DVD, screens etc melt too, else smoke if they are too cool to melt LOL!)
But surely - minimise the losses first, THEN upgrade alternators etc. I release my handbrake - I don't get a bigger engine to overcome it.
Maybe skip this too...
I'll occasionally use my (multi) meter to check the voltage between the engine-body/chassis; engine-battery; & battery-body/chassis ground paths (with engine charging; lights on/off etc) as a check on cable quality.
I did the same recently for the +12V path to my aux battery and found a 0.5V drop in a 6" cable section. I promptly replaced that!
And I will have a few extra engine-chassis ground straps in case one breaks, as well as reducing resistance. Excluding possible "ground loop" issues, there is no reason not to have "excessive" ground strapping. And usually there are plenty of places to run extra engine to body straps.
Alas am the one stubbornly blabbing on...
But your battery is discharging.
Get a multimeter to check where the big volt-drops are occuring (alt to battery; alt or battery to lamps or amps; ground straps; etc.
Or compare alternator +12V to engine block/head voltage, across battery terminals voltage, and amp +12V to gnd voltage (with amp running).
I'd want under 1V difference, but for high current loads, 2V can be difficult to achieve.
FYI - assuming a normal lead-acid battery in a temperate climate, charging voltage should NOT exceed 14.4V long term.
13.6V seems low. Most equipment ratings are at 13.8V - a common "minimum" set voltage for alternators.
(And unless it's an alternator with only a charge-lamp output (D+) (excluding of course its standard "heavy" power output B or B+), it's easy to trick the alternator into delivering a higher voltage.)
Page of 2

  Printable version Printable version Post ReplyPost New Topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

  •  
Search the12volt.com
Follow the12volt.com Follow the12volt.com on Facebook
Wednesday, April 24, 2024 • Copyright © 1999-2024 the12volt.com, All Rights Reserved Privacy Policy & Use of Cookies
Disclaimer: *All information on this site ( the12volt.com ) is provided "as is" without any warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including but not limited to fitness for a particular use. Any user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and use of this information. Please verify all wire colors and diagrams before applying any information.

Secured by Sectigo
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
Support the12volt.com
Top
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer