midrange mush

Hello all and thanks for what I am about to put you through........

I purchased some decent stuff about two years ago and now that I have heard some other setups, I realize mine sounds like crap.  A buddy of mine by the name of Reed told me to jump on here and ask some questions of the pros that they may be able to help me out.

I have read the rules, tried to find a good place to ask my question, but instead I guess I just need to dive in and ask away.....  Hoping this is in the right area.  Please forgive me if it is not!!!!

1996 Ford Explorer   HU Alpine 9887 -- Focal 165 V1 seperates with crossovers all four doors -- PDX 4100 -- MRP-M1000 - Alpine 1242 Type R Sealed in 1.2 Cubic .75 with a little poly.

Question......  when you have passive crossovers, and you bump the tweets down by say -3db, and then you go to the deck crossover and bump the output to that mid and tweet channel down by -6db......  is that the same as having an acitive setup and bumping something down by -9db.  Are they additive, do they like working together, or are you really messing up the sound.

Question......  with passive crossovers, if you adjust the slope in the deck as any db per octave.......  is it really doing anything considering there is a slope engineeried into the passive crossover.

The focals are just a mess in the midrange.....  sounds like mud.  I have the PDX set for 80 hertz and up.  The tweeters up front are like a dentist drill as they are mounted up on the door on each side.  The right tweeter kills me.  And it seems as though the midrange has no punch at all.

I have been thinking about getting rid of all  four doors Focals, and going with an active system of some kind.  I would like to condsider getting some great mids and tweets and going two way active up front via the switch on the bottom of the deck.  I know Haemphest was looking at Vifa, some tweets and so on.......  but there have been many comments to active being a real bear to tune in.  I am willing to get a laptop with some RTA going.  The guys at the local store said you have to be really careful if going active to not blow the components.

Question......  If I went active, is there any hope of getting my focals to sound better and could I dim the dang tweeters down.  Do I just need to go with a silk dome tweeter to get away from the harshness.  Is there a mid range out there in 6.5 that will just kick the snot out of the focal mid.  Should I experiment with the focals in active to get a feel for what components will take without a passive crossover.  Do you just start with the gains way down for each stage and try to stay under say 30 watts for the tweets.

Seems like I am just thining and typing here, so many questions come to mind.  Sorry for the ramble, but any help is much appreciated.

Regards, Licto

Uh oh, this doesent sound good......  I know, sell the truck and buy a scooter....  ouch!!!!!!  Na, just kidding, looking forward to your reply.  I saw the breakout that you did of your components and would really enterertain doing a 2 way setup....  if you think that would work.  Guess what I am getting at is this......

If you could recommend a great mid and tweet that are super punchy and smooth.......  I would try to go active.  But only if there is a chance that it could at least be tuned by ear for the time being and sound better than these focals.

Look forward to your comments........

Licto

I of course have been doing some reading since.....  trying to find more knowledge on this mid tweet crazyness......

Read some good tips by speakermaker.....  very technical point of view on midrange, power, phase, etc......

One of his comments would be that if your passive crossover is at 2.5 or so for the highs, you can mount tweeters and midrange higher on the door or up on an A pillar.  But at 4k or so, its just not a good idea to mount the tweeter too far away from the midrange.  I have my midrange and tweet together in the rear doors and tweet of course is behind the factory grill.  Up front they are seperate by about a foot, and the tweeter is face value right on the plastic of the door.  The mid is behind the factory grill.

To your points.....  Thanks for the compliment!!!!  And also glad this is in the right place.

I dont understand this part: Alpine 1242 Type R Sealed in 1.2 Cubic .75 with a little poly. Is your box .75 cubes or is it 1.2 cubes?

The above means that the alpine sub is in a sealed enclosure, total box volume was 1.27 cubes minus driver left me with 1.2 cubes.  It is built with .75 inch MDF.  I Had just a little bit of poly laying around, so I threw it in the box.  Just finished it last night and it sounds better than any sub enclosure I have had up to date.  Happy with that part or the system.  40hz test tone at .75 volume on the deck and flat settings just rocks the truck.

Define Crap.......  I am a drummer and have been for 20 some years.  I play a beautiful yamaha recording custom kit made of birch from 1984.  I waited 20 years to get this kit and it just sings.  The mids that I get out of my car doors sound nothing close to what a drum should.  The drummer for Dave Mathews has the same kit and it sounds just awesome on my home system.  Two 12" 250 watt subs on the floor, box speaker on top of that with an 8 and tweet in it.  The home system is just effortless in reproducing the whole spectrum, bass, guitar, toms, some bass drum, etc...... all are  full bodied and sound as though you are there.

Mid from the truck is truncated, has no attack, sounds like you have a sponge in the speaker grill.  Snare hits have no bottom, just a nasty attack from the tweeters and nothing that follows along to complete the note played.  This is the best I can do in explaining sounds like "Crap"  The mids are almost non existant......  that it sounds like I have a sub with some tweeters in the truck.....

I have been coming to the same conclusion you have on this entry line of focals....  they suck, and as a great politician by the name of Ross Perot said once......  Saturday night live version....  If you paint a pig with purple spots, you aint necessarily going to get peanut butter.....  Ha!!!!!

These speakers sounded so much better in the wall at the store......  buyers remorse, two years later.....  who would have thought.

I have listened to some morels, Focal K2P, etc and they all sound so much more full bodied in the vehicles they were in.

Question, do you think I should try moving my tweets down into the door with the mids in the front.  It will take them a bit more off axis and put them behind the factory grill.  This is just as an experiment until I get some silk and good mids.  Possible the ones that you recommended.  More on that later.

Question......  with my power gear......  If I went with your mids, some silk tweets of some kind, use the PDX in an active setup.....  without doing a ton of RTA, can I get a sound that is just absolutly far superior to what is going on right now without too much trouble??

Just as a second guess here......  One of the guys in the forums by the name Speakermaker seems to be a big fan of Focal and has commented that the 165 polyglass and the focal tweeters are some of the best made.  Curious about his experiences and how he came to those comments.......  just curious as though I must be missing something from my install or done something incorrect.

On to your speakers you have for sale.  I am interested.  Have not heard about Mpyre before.  Can you send me some details on them??  Maybe a personal email to demonracing@gmail.com on what you would like to get out of a pair if you dont like sharing in forums for $$.  I guess I am kind of in the 500.00 range for the front stage at this point.  Spent 460.00 on all the focals..... 

Oh ya,,,,,  if you go active, do you need to put some kind of resistor or limiting/safety device in line to ensure you dont blow tweeters.  Another dumb question.....  if you turn something down by say -12db......  are you limiting power by doing this.  As in, kind of turning them down so lower wattage.

Please recommend some tweeters.  I have of course been drooling over the Morel Supremo.......   It sounds like tweeters designed with some type of chamber behind them are the way to go.  They have a lower Fs and this allows you to cross them over at say 2k rather than 3 or 4k.  Double the Fs is said to be ok...... as I have read.

Thanks again for your help..... 

Lico

Sweet stuff until I got the Wanda Sykes part.....  I shuddered, then coughed up some stomach acid a little, drank some water and tried to get myself centered for constructive learning again.

Imagine this......  Dark room, you know there is a hottie in there waiting for you and YOU think it is Wanda......  you go in, slip the covers, etc etc...... 40 min later for me, (40 seconds for Haem)....  sorry educated guess.......  Ha, just kidding......  ok back to it......  40 min later your done and phew, what a work out.  You roll over and turn on the light.......  Holly sh**, its Danny Glover laying next to you......

THAT my friend......  is how good looking I think Wanda Sykes is.......  ya for sure, try to get that image out of you head.

OK, stereo stuff....  this is what I am going to do........

Step one.......  Dynamat the crap out of my doors out and in.

Step two......  Run the wires for the active setup from my pdx to the focals I have while moving the tweet down into the midrange area.  Evaluate and play around.

Step three......  While I am in there, try to come up with a plan for these Mpyres and tweets.

Few questions.........

The crossover area of my 9887 does a couple of differnt things depending on the way you have a switch on the bottom the deck.  As we discussed and you prolly well know.

Active three way......  or a four door type of mode.  If I set up for active and get that going, can I power the speakers I have in the rear doors (just for fill) with the rear channel power of the deck.  In the active three way mode, is the fader capability of the deck still available, or does it get shut off.  Second part of that......  with things crossed over the way you said,,,,  80, 80 - 2k, and 2k Up........  what freq will be driven out of the rear channel off the HU if it does in fact still work......  will they be full freq range.

PS....  Just today I went back to the PDX and turned off the crossover all together.  There is HP LP and OFF....  I put both to OFF to see if the crossover in the PDX and the HU were conflicting with each other on the slope.  It seems to have done something I like, but not sure what yet. I currently have all three crossover points in the deck set to 80Hz and 12 slope.  Have to check the MRP-1000 next to see if turning its crossover off helps as well.  Little more open and punchy......

Turns out the M1000 does not have a switch to just turn the crossover OFF......  Did not see in the manual that it has any type of slope associated with what ever setting you do pick on the dial.  So if I just turn it up to 200, and then cross over reasonably in the deck.......  the 63, 80, or at worst.....  100 that I may choose......  with the 12 or more slope.....  is that what I am going to get.  Or is there some type of secret slope in all alpine amps that I am unaware of??  Just curious.

Really curious about all the dimensions on the Mpyre's.......  Can I get those things in my doors on the exploder.....??

Have a good one and hope to hear from you soon......

Licto.......