most effective kill for a manual?

Since a starter kill is basically useless in a manual transmission, what is another reliable sort of kill? I was thinking of a fuel, or ignition kill, what would be the most reliable way to make these?

LOL! Starter kill are useless anywhere - it's like cutting power to the ignition - except for newer chipped cars etc. Short the Ignition Coil's -minus terminal to ground somewhere. That requires removal of the coil- connections and bridging to whatever ignition trigger system you have. That's much harder than adding a jumper lead, and a bridge/short to the starter solenoid.

There are immobilizer systems up here in Canada that install into a 3 point immobilizer system: starter, fuel and injector. Depending on what vehicle this is, these 3 points of immobilization will disable the vehicle from starting or getting push started.Jeff

Velocity Custom Home Theater

Mobile Audio/Video Specialist

Morden, Manitoba CANADA

And Jeff we have them as well, Thatcham Cat 2 and 4 or 5 years later when the battery fails I'm asked to remove them. The point is I've never ever failed to find one and get the car going again, usually start to finish 10mins! A Mits nearly beat me the other week 'till I found there was no ignition constant and had to replace the 40amp ignition fuse in the fusebox adjacent to the battery. Hence I'm not in favour of immobilisers, factory transponder beats all. P.S., just make one bad solder joint on the ignition or fuel line = trouble.

That's one of my arguments - when immobilisers start killing people, maybe they will rethink the whole situation! Things like injectors can be defeated the same way as grounding ignition coils, That's good because it is pointless cutting their power. But disabling the ECU that controls them is a different matter!    Since starters are often accessible, it is usually pointless disabling them too. Fuel can be a problem depending on its control. On some GM vehicles, just send 12V to the oil switch - that overrides the ECU control of the fuel pump LOL! But again, fuel pumps should be ECU controlled (and NEVER oil-pressure controlled!). That been the benefit of the previous generation of EFI vehicles - many options for disabling. Modern cars are more like HDMI anti -piracy. As to the earlier generations with carbies etc that used to cut power to the coil... poor sods!   What's the song... "Money for nothing... 'cos your (useless) chips ain't free!". Howie knows the oldskool methods - unlike those that hacked the ignition switch trying to steal a mate's 45 year old car. Morons! But unlike me, Howie probably knows which systems are not hackable but do NOT suffer unreliability and risk. But anything that cuts power as a defense is usually flawed.

So I'm still not clear on what to disable that would make it all effective.

The others will have to explain what their immobilisers do. What I am saying is to short the Ignition Coil negative to GND. This assumes a conventional/traditional points or ignitor ignition (hence works with normal tachometers). Because traditional ignitions are ground switching (which I often refer to as Open Collector...) - ie, the Coil+ end is connected to +12V (via the Ignition key and maybe a ballast resistor) and the coil- is connected to GND via oldskool points - else transitor or HEI etc systems - to charge the coil. The coil then fires the splugs when the GND-short opens (points open or transistor/FET/HEI turns off). So if the coil- is never released from GND, spark never occurs at the splugs (spark plugs). Hence no engine start. The same happens for CDIs (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) assuming they are the more common points & HEI substitute - a few types pulse the +ve to the coil instead. In the above systems, shorting the coil- to GND will not damage the ignition system. Prolonged connection of the coil- to GND may eventually overheat and blow the ignition coil (after say 10-15 minutes), but we are talking about an anti-theft system. The beauty of the shorting system is that the short can be anywhere(**) and it has to be REMOVED in order to have ignition, whereas cutting power to component merely requires the jumpering of power to that component - you only have to know where the component is, not where the power is cut. (IE - a well hidden under-dash break of IGN +12V to the ignition coil - just jumper from the battery +12V to the coil+ terminal. Presto!)    ** The only limitation of the short is that is has to be close or heavy enough to short the ignition pulses. The ignition-kill switch wires on my old bike shorted the points, but were from the coil- and were too long or thin to kill the engine at hi RPM - I had a 12,000 RPM bike on top of me! Ignition kill should be coil power unless you are certain to prevent points/ignition pulsed to the coil. (The bike would never start with kill on, and kill would kill normal engine RPM - ie, to 8,000RPM. But at 12,000 RPM the magneto voltage must have been so high.....) In summary, you have to remove a short that defeats a circuit. You merely have to bypass anything that cuts a circuit. For a starter motor, that bypass is called a screwdriver, or keys, etc. For other things, its low-power jumper leads; alligator clips; flying leads with spade/blade connectors etc.

How can this be accomplished with a relay? Pardon the noobness. Learning alot from you master installers though and teaching others about it.

But I'm not an installer! You don't need a relay for a short - it need probably just be a switch, unless it's controlled by an alarm system etc. But the relay can supply or remove the short. The choices for that are: - an SPST (on-off) relay that is on and shorts the points or whatever unless you disable the relay, or - an SPDT (changeover) relay whose NC contact (Normally Closed - ie, closed when de-energised) shot <whatever> and you remove that short by energising the relay. The former functions like an "extended switch" where the on-switch is too far for the shot - eg as per my unkillable bike on torso example. The disadvantage - the relay is normally on therefore draining the battery... (ie, its solenoid current of probably at least 50mA). The latter makes more sense - without power, the target <whatever> is shorted. To remove the short, supply power to energise the relay and open the NC contacts thus lengthening the short (ha ha - ie, removing or un-shorting the short circuit). Since this is done with ignition on, any relay current is negligible. The risk is if the relay fails or de-energises, the short may be applied - eg, ignition is killed.    Switches alone would be the most reliable - no need for a relay.

Actually this is all running around in circles and going nowhere. Why not just a mechanical gear shift lock? A large German Shepherd? (Works for me). ANY idea you come up with has probably been done to death before and I've probably got around it in about 5-10 mins.