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nissan second starter wire


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howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
Pot Metal spacespace
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Posted: October 25, 2010 at 2:57 AM / IP Logged  
X 2 with Beegbie.
t&t tech 
Platinum - Posts: 2,601
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Posted: October 25, 2010 at 4:55 PM / IP Logged  

Really i didn't know this, howard why didn't you mention this before? nissan second starter wire - Page 2 -- posted image. 

howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
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Posted: October 25, 2010 at 5:19 PM / IP Logged  
I'm with the sentiment but I don't think it's right, both starters should see a ground at rest, usually the second starter will run items such as a high pressure fuel primer, systems which only use 1 starter wire usually have the tach sensed by the ECU. As soon as it detects the engine turning over, the primer cuts out.
I wish some one who knew more would tell me why, I still can't see the point of a second starter, though obviously a second ignition(dumping during crank) I can see.
Strangely enough a lot of Europeans don't even have an ACC, those functions are now controlled by the CAN system as soon as driver's door is opened....lovely.
howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
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Posted: October 25, 2010 at 5:30 PM / IP Logged  
Actually Darren I'm sure beegbie is wrong!
If it's not going to ground whether key is on or not shouldn't make any difference but be careful, European Sprinters show the starter as open circuit, it's feeding an ECU and that's where you pick up the starter.
Again if the wire isn't going to ground, what's it doing there?
Manufacturers watch every penny...why put the wiring in. And before you say it's logical to have one loom for different models, back in the mid-90s we were installing AC in Northern European home market M/Benz that were going to Africa. The power steering (or alternator) bracket only had room for that item. we had to order a special bracket, you'd think on a single casting like that Mercedes would order 1 size fits all, I know Toyota and Mits did back in the 80s when they didn't have AC in Northern Europe and they were pre-wired for AC.
The real answer is to get your hands on a circuit diagramme and see what's going where.
beegbie 
Copper - Posts: 341
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Posted: October 25, 2010 at 6:34 PM / IP Logged  
howie ll wrote:
Actually Darren I'm sure beegbie is wrong!
If it's not going to ground whether key is on or not shouldn't make any difference but be careful, European Sprinters show the starter as open circuit, it's feeding an ECU and that's where you pick up the starter.
Again if the wire isn't going to ground, what's it doing there?
Manufacturers watch every penny...why put the wiring in. And before you say it's logical to have one loom for different models, back in the mid-90s we were installing AC in Northern European home market M/Benz that were going to Africa. The power steering (or alternator) bracket only had room for that item. we had to order a special bracket, you'd think on a single casting like that Mercedes would order 1 size fits all, I know Toyota and Mits did back in the 80s when they didn't have AC in Northern Europe and they were pre-wired for AC.
The real answer is to get your hands on a circuit diagramme and see what's going where.
I agree with you on getting your hands on diagramme and I will work on that and post back. But, if your using a example of mercedes in the 90's to explain why Nissan has one wire in its ignition harness thats not used your losing me. My only proof is a few installers that I work with that spend all day every day at Nissan dealerships installing remote starts do it this way. How would you explain some resting at ground and some not? Maybe you should do your homework before being so sure of yourself that I'm wrong. I'm not looking for confrontation here, I'm trying to share useful information to save others time and money.
t&t tech 
Platinum - Posts: 2,601
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Posted: October 25, 2010 at 8:07 PM / IP Logged  
So, im thinking howard's an installer like myself and he is a damn good one if i might say so, and beegbie on the other hand spends time with installers, lol, i'll take howard's side any day, it just doesn't seem logical, so if a wire was suspended at the end of it all, shouldn't the circuit be open all the time? Why the logic of only when the car is running, starter wires do rest at ground except for when there's voltage through the cranking cycle, am i right howard?
howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
Pot Metal spacespace
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Posted: October 26, 2010 at 12:28 AM / IP Logged  
Beegbie, I apologise, not after confrontation, just wondering what that second starter wire was for.
I was just quoting Mercedes as an example of a car maker using different for example mounting brackets for different spec. models rather than 1 size fits all.
The other example being the Saab 9-3 of around 10-7 years ago, speaker grills in the doors but no wiring, thus why is there a second starter wire?
In practice I'd still relay them apart. The guys working for the car dealerships have a certain level of liability protection which we don't.
For the $1 or so a relay costs me, I'll buy that protection and that's my bottom line.
P.S. NOTHING is open circuit on a regular key turned ignition switch.
beegbie 
Copper - Posts: 341
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Posted: October 26, 2010 at 5:41 AM / IP Logged  
t&t tech wrote:
So, im thinking howard's an installer like myself and he is a damn good one if i might say so, and beegbie on the other hand spends time with installers, lol, i'll take howard's side any day, it just doesn't seem logical, so if a wire was suspended at the end of it all, shouldn't the circuit be open all the time? Why the logic of only when the car is running, starter wires do rest at ground except for when there's voltage through the cranking cycle, am i right howard?
I agree, Howard is a damn good installer and a asset to this forum. This is the reason that i'm suggesting you guys at least consider the possibility that I may be right. You wouldn't want to mislead everyone on here? Instead, your coming up with every reason why I couldn't be right. As far as your question above, think of it this way... On the cars that need the relay, the ground your reading when the key is on is probably the ground on the other side of a relay coil. When that relay is not there the wire will not test as ground. Pretty simple?
howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
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Posted: October 26, 2010 at 5:48 AM / IP Logged  
Beegbie you're right in that I'm prepared to listen, I thought about the coil earlier and dismissed it but you're quite correct, unless KP or Oldspark or Idiot corrects me, a wire going to the coil won't see a ground.
The original post was about commoning the two wires, I still won't take the chance.
I apologise for trying to sound like the devil's advocate but I still fuse everything, diode protect etc.
howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
Pot Metal spacespace
Joined: January 09, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: October 26, 2010 at 5:55 AM / IP Logged  
Blimey beegbie, just thought about that one again, rule formulation:-
Take a DMM to each starter wire, cut BOTH and see if they are common at the key switch, also see the current draw on cranking position, if the load on BOTH is 20 amps or less, you won't need a second relay and you can tie them together.
Problem is you and t&t both fully understand what I'm getting at here, would an amateur?
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