fortin, flashlogic,dei, xpresskit, idata

May I try to clarify this? There are three types of black box. 1) Transponder by-pass. 2) CAN or other data "converters" for locks, triggers, vehicle state, e.g. disable factory alarm etc. etc. 3) Combo for above 2. In general W2W tends to be more reliable especially for instance tach. BUT for many vehicles, especially those I deal with, Euros from 2005 are generally untouchable with W2W everything is CAN, even had this on a 2000 Mercedes where the lock/unlock pulses were data generated, also power windows on many Japanese vehicles, hence the comment "go to the motor wires" on window closers. General rule, if the vehicle doesn't NEED CAN conversion for locks, lights triggers don't bother you'd be better off with W2W.

From what our OP writes, if no transponder on that vehicle forget the data boxes and hard wire, a very easy vehicle to install to. Other poster, there are far more than 5 ways to control locks. Heck London taxis even use low neg for the fronts and open circuit (4 relays needed) for the rear because there's no trigger mechanism. Also NO installer is going to leave install notes in a car, I hate to even tell people how to alter sensor settings without a waiver from the customer, i.e. no call out if that sensor starts misbehaving. I've also been called out many times to audit/sort out other people's installs. Depending on the vehicle I usually find everything exactly where I thought it would be.

howie ll wrote: May I try to clarify this? There are three types of black box. 1) Transponder by-pass. 2) CAN or other data "converters" for locks, triggers, vehicle state, e.g. disable factory alarm etc. etc. 3) Combo for above 2. In general W2W tends to be more reliable especially for instance tach. BUT for many vehicles, especially those I deal with, Euros from 2005 are generally untouchable with W2W everything is CAN, even had this on a 2000 Mercedes where the lock/unlock pulses were data generated, also power windows on many Japanese vehicles, hence the comment "go to the motor wires" on window closers. General rule, if the vehicle doesn't NEED CAN conversion for locks, lights triggers don't bother you'd be better off with W2W.

howie ll, Appreciate your input, keep it coming. Q: As you point out most cars mfg within the last 7+ years or so are CAN-BUS. Transponder by-pass issue aside: 1: How do you tell if a particular vehicle "needs" a CAN-BUS vs W2W setup? 2: On "going to the motor wires" on window closers. The 2007 Hyundai Entourage (AKA 2nd generation KIA Sedona) does NOT have a transponder key, does NOT have a "convenience" option on the car in which turning the key to the lock position for 5-7 seconds will roll up and windows /sunroof that might be open. CAN-BUS interfaces I've looked at do not show CAN-BUS tie ins so I would assume adding a "convenience option" to control windows, the sunroof will require adding a "window-roll-up module(s) to control such. Module(s) are interfaced/blended into existing vehicle wiring /switching as needed via W2W. Roll-up module wired via W2W to alarm/remote brain so there is NO interaction with the CAN-BUS. On CAN-BUS vehicles with a "convenience option", what brand cars /percentage of such can the "convenience option" be added via a CAN-BUS module?

howie ll wrote: From what our OP writes, if no transponder on that vehicle forget the data boxes and hard wire, a very easy vehicle to install to.

2007 Hyundai Entourage, AKA 2nd generation KIA Sedona, AKA Carnival in Europe is very easy to do? Will keep that in consideration, if I add a "convenience option" to control the windows I might as hardwire the other stuff. If you have any info that is vehicle specific, if you could PM me the info it would be appreciated. In the threads here on this board I found (1) post that mentions briefly it's a PITA to tie in to the door-lock switch in the drivers door. The only thread here I found was CAN-BUS related.

howie ll wrote: ~snip~ Also NO installer is going to leave install notes in a car, I hate to even tell people how to alter sensor settings without a waiver from the customer, i.e. no call out if that sensor starts misbehaving. I've also been called out many times to audit/sort out other people's installs. Depending on the vehicle I usually find everything exactly where I thought it would be.

RE: NO installer is going to leave install notes in a car. Howie, You are looking at this from the point of a installer, the point I was making in regards to "aftermarket" wiring is it INCREASES servicing costs. Forget about alarms, you being a installer... Lets put the shoe on the other foot, imagine you SERVICE cars on flat-rate and have NO access to aftermarket wiring diagram info, and the installer did not leave a wiring diagram. (oh joy) Would the final charge (bill) be more? (Yes it would) Many years ago and I can't remember the exact details I had a friend which re-wired his car on purpose, turning on light switch would cause the wipers to turn on, hitting the wiper switch would turn on the flashers, flasher switch would control something else, opening the glove box "if" the rear window defroster switch was depressed would crank the car (engage the starter) and so on. Would you want to service cars like that without a copy of the install notes, without a wiring diagram? (Say you had a flat fee for fixing xyz and you could not charge extra for time spent. YOU had to eat time spent.)

Back on topic... Assuming the CAN-BUS module is W2W'd to the alarm/remote start control box. Q: How long have each of the below brands been on the market? How many years /since when? FORTIN FLASHLOGIC (AUDIOVOX) XPRESSKIT IDATALINK (Please fee free to add to list) Q: Are these CAN-BUS interface modules considered "mature" products? Q: How many generations have each had? Q: Are they considered to be stable/reliable? Q: Which are the most stable? Q: How would you rate each on speed of coming out with updates to firmware? Q: Which of the above provide support /continue updating firmware on prior product version(s)the longest?

Ref window close. 1 x DEI 530t per pair of windows, close and vent. 1 x DEI 529t ditto, close only. With the 530t you must go to the motor wires in each door, this will also give you one-shot close and open from all your switches. Don't assume a CAN conversion box will save ANYTHING on your car it's going to be all W2W. Incidentally I did my first DEI Viper (5702) R/S today on an 07 Euro GM car, totally CAN, sold in the US as the last Saturn Astra. I used a DB-all, I STILL had to de-chip a spare key to make the R/S work, Fortin in future.

We're out of synch here but ref: the servicing post, no I wouldn't touch that car in fact as far as ANY aftermarket install is concerned there's no such creature as "flat rate" except when I'm doing multiple fleet trackers into the same type of vehicle.

This is all beginning to sound like market research to me, maybe Kregg and I should be paid

howie ll wrote: This is all beginning to sound like market research to me, maybe Kregg and I should be paid

Market research? Wondering how long these CAN-BUS modules have been around- and if they're reliable. Haven't run across any threads on the net that go into details on the units /comparisons, only a random post of two that might pop-up in a thread. XYZ website/mfg selling xyz product is going to say "Hey our units are great!" Thought some discussion might help someone else wondering what the heck the differences are, which company to purchase from. Pro's and Con's of the units /and or the companies behind the units.

Only trying to make the point that we've now gone 2 pages and we are running around in circles. All the products are similar, IMO, Fortin has the edge and answers all your questions bar the second. Your car doesn't need a CAN system, it's not going to help. Please don't lecture on something you allegedly know nothing about, the more questions you ask, the more confused you're going to get. Just get out there and work on the damned car.