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capacitor vs. added battery


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tunesmith 
Member - Posts: 10
Member spacespace
Joined: December 15, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 15, 2003 at 5:05 AM / IP Logged  
could someone please explain the pro's /con's of whether it is a better idea to install a capacitor v.s. a battery, for say,.. better transient response ,or say even better bass response would an additional battery be better at suppling the addtn;l current needed to offset current supply drainage during loud volumes or would a capacitor be quicker at this task? ive heard that a battery would be slower at producing available current for musical peaks? and i understand that a capacitor helps somewhat with dimming lights, any replies would be appreciated thanks , p.s  otherwise if i've been misled how else can i justify having wasted  my money on a cap!
Maxst 
Silver - Posts: 866
Silver spacespace
Joined: June 06, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 15, 2003 at 4:15 PM / IP Logged  

Get a bigger alt.

Battery and caps still have to get charged. The Alt does that. Have a low output alt and everything suffers.

I need quality equipment, feel free to donate.
Intensecustoms 
Member - Posts: 29
Member spacespace
Joined: November 25, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 15, 2003 at 9:05 PM / IP Logged  
tunesmith wrote:
could someone please explain the pro's /con's of whether it is a better idea to install a capacitor v.s. a battery, for say,.. better transient response ,or say even better bass response would an additional battery be better at suppling the addtn;l current needed to offset current supply drainage during loud volumes or would a capacitor be quicker at this task? ive heard that a battery would be slower at producing available current for musical peaks? and i understand that a capacitor helps somewhat with dimming lights, any replies would be appreciated thanks , p.s  otherwise if i've been misled how else can i justify having wasted  my money on a cap!
Intensecustoms 
Member - Posts: 29
Member spacespace
Joined: November 25, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 15, 2003 at 9:15 PM / IP Logged  
i dont know what the hell i did there but as for your question .once a cap. is charged depending on the farad it will maintain a charge usually  as long as you follow the rule of thumb 1 cap per 1000 . A battery will increase the volts and can handle usually a lot more depending on the amp (c.c)preferably gel cell or   optima .but you do not want to have a second batt that is bigger than your factory it will just pull the volts and you will expereince problems with your current flow .if you get a abattery make sure both are the same.if you can have 14.4 volts youll be good
lspker 
Silver - Posts: 503
Silver spacespace
Joined: November 23, 2003
Location: Canada
Posted: December 15, 2003 at 9:35 PM / IP Logged  
The stiffening cap will reduce the amount of voltage flucuation, and if your amp is not regulated enough, will provide a sharper bass note.  If you have voltage loss (dimming lights) you need to improve your supply by more battery or bigger alternator.
geolemon 
Member - Posts: 16
Member spacespace
Joined: November 10, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 16, 2003 at 1:24 AM / IP Logged  
MAXST wrote:

Get a bigger alt.

Battery and caps still have to get charged. The Alt does that. Have a low output alt and everything suffers.

That's a somewhat logical, but shortsighted and unfortunately misunderstood view of what happens.

Yes, the alternator charges them... but in order to charge them, they must first be discharged.  They are not loads, in fully charged form, essentially they are simply available sources, should the voltage level drop below each of their threshholds.

Secondly, if the current demand of the alternator were momentarily exceeded - say, a really big bass note - so that the alternator couldn't supply all the current for that moment - all that would happen is the battery would supply the additional current needed, however much that was.

Of course, the car's voltage needs to drop to the battery's 12v level to do this... and since light bulbs are not as bright on 12v as they are on 14.4v, you see a bit of dimming.  Not harmful. (Ahem....intensecustomscapacitor vs. added battery - Last Post -- posted image.)

And when that moment in time passed, the battery would recharge that small amount of power drained, in about the same time period.

Bear in mind, batteries are slow.  Not just slow to charge, but slow to respond to discharge.  Deep cycle batteries are the worst... the large plates that let them survive abusive treatment make them the slowest of all. capacitor vs. added battery - Last Post -- posted image.

A capacitor is lighting fast, to both charge and discharge, and it suffers no damage or wear from doing so, unlike the battery.

A capacitor makes sense to augment the electrical system, to augment the battery, for these moments when you do exceed the alternator's currrent capacity for a moment.  It can respond faster than a battery, filling in until the battery can catch up if you will.  It can even handle brief transients on it's own, you can notice an improvement even in the headlight dimming.

Bear in mind, on average, even high powered systems only draw about 20-30a of current, given real music (not test tones), even at reasonably loud volume levels, even considering peaks that can reach 100a-150a or more.capacitor vs. added battery - Last Post -- posted image.

It's not the peak current draw that concerns you (those will cause headlight dimming... don't sweat it) - it's the average current draw that you need to be concerned with.
But bearing that in mind, if your average current draw exceeded your alternator's current capability, and you could still stand to be in the car, there are other inefficiencies to track down - the alternator isn't your problem, your loudspeakers/enclosures are. capacitor vs. added battery - Last Post -- posted image.

An alternator upgrade bears many penalties also... energy isn't free, a bigger alternator is a horsepower-robbing device.  It may not make much more idle-RPM current, it's current ability may happen at higher RPM's, making that horsepower penalty even less attractive. 

They are also expensive, and may need to be custom built, or custom installed, into your particular vehicle.

I'm definitely NOT one to jump to the "Oh, you should install a bigger alternator!" capacitor vs. added battery - Last Post -- posted image.

tunesmith 
Member - Posts: 10
Member spacespace
Joined: December 15, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 16, 2003 at 2:05 AM / IP Logged  
hey thanks everyone for your informative replies, im really impressed with all the positive feedback and expertise
n0risc 
Member - Posts: 5
Member spacespace
Joined: December 26, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 26, 2003 at 12:37 PM / IP Logged  
Heh...  All Caps and Batteries provide is capacitance.
167.3
superchuckles 
Copper - Posts: 89
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 29, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: January 02, 2004 at 5:05 AM / IP Logged  

Heh...  All Caps and Batteries provide is capacitance.

yes, that's true, but the point he was making (and you did a pretty good job of pointing it out there geoleman) was where the problem (if you can call it one) really lies.  basically, if your stereo isn't pulling the voltage down below 13.6 when your engine is running and you've got your lights and everything running, then putting a bigger alternator in is not going to make any difference.  i know there'll be someone who will argue that it will, but the fact is, it wont.  reason?  an alternator is NOT a constant (not even close) source of charging power - it is a pulsed source, and it's between those pulses that your system is hacking away at the surface charge built on your battery.  a battery is a good source of high current, BUT - the moment you pull more than about 15 amps from a battery, you lose about 1 volt of potential across the battery.   stop pulling the current, it goes back up - this is just a simple fact of physics when it comes to lead acid batteries.  you want constant voltage on a battery, get a lithium battery.... but anyhow - since you can't get a lithium that big, if you have a huge capacitor -- something in the area of 1 or more farads, you now have something that is able to stabilize (or buffer) the voltage between the gaps in the charge pulses from the alternator.  the other thing that the cap buffers out, is the latency that occurs between a sudden drain being put on the system, and the voltage regulator compensating by increasing the voltage across the alternators field coils.  now, if you put in a large cap, have a good battery, turn your stereo up, and it still drains, then your voltage was draining below 13.6 anyway (like i said at the beginning) and obviously your alternator couldn't handle the high beams, electronic ignition, fuel injection fuel pump, other engine electronics, those nifty looking lights in your wheel wells, charging your cell phone.  still - putting an alternator in that's 150+ amps i guarantee your lights will still flicker with a system that is just 300 watts - with the cap, it will eliminate the surging or minimize it as far as your'e going to get - short of switching your whole electrical system over to a digital supply for your stereo.  yes (sigh) i've done that in 3 cases where it was an EXTREEM system and the guy wanted every single last possible advantage he could have.  i wouldn't reccomend it for the average, or for that matter, for anyone other than someone whos got money/time to burn. i've seen the caps eliminate all surging AND it does increase the crispness and overall power of the bass response, not to mention, reducing distortion on your highs during those surges due to power loss.    so to make a long story just slightly longer, yes - if you want to improve overall quality of the sound system, plus get rid of the annoying surges (which btw burn brushes out faster on your alternator because the voltage regulator swinging up and down all the time), get the cap - it is well justified. 


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