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amp gain question


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forbidden 
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Joined: November 01, 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posted: April 05, 2004 at 8:52 PM / IP Logged  

You can underpower a sub all day long and cause no problems to a subwoofer. The RMS power handling of a sub is a guide at best, it is the thermal barrier that the sub can safely transfer the input power into heat and sound. Heat is what is going to cause a sub to fail, it is a natural byproduct of producing power in any way shape or form. (had a cider or two here, so don't mind if I ramble on - nice day outside - the snowchickens aerobatic team is praticing here this week - had the time to sit and enjoy). Anyways the peak power rating of a sub is what the speaker can dissipate as a snapshot in time. It can respond to that level of input for that brief moment in time but if left continously playing that signal, the speaker will not be able to dissipate the excess heat build up and you end up with the dreaded sss (smelly speaker syndrome). If you run less than the rms rating of a sub into the amp and do not run the amp into clipping, the sub will play and last a long time. What may happen is that your spl may not be what you expect (which leads to improper gain setting), the bass will lack impact and definition beacuse of not enough power, but it will not blow if the gain is set correctly and the sub does not see a clipped signal. A sub may actually play a clipped signal and never fail, depending on the length of time that it is playing the signal, the type of voice coil former used, the type of box, the type of cooling system in the sub in question. All these factor into the if or when the sub will fail due to clipping. Once a sub is damaged due to clipping, it is only a matter of time before it fails. If you drastically overpower a sub and the voice coil former cannot dissipate the excessive heat generated, it too can cause failure of the sub.

Your vehicle has a speedometer that says it can do 260 kmh. It does not mean that you must do that speed all the time. You car has a tachometer, the redline is at 7000 rmp. You know that if you exceed that redline bad things can happen to the engine, but if you stay below it all is fine. The clipping point of an amp is the redline on a tach. It is partially determined by the input voltage of the amplifer coming from whatever source (cd player or processor). It is also determined by the amount of boost or cut in the frequencies that the amp is playing as well as the source material itslef. A gain control is not a volume control, it is a level matching device to the output voltage of the source unit that is supplying the input signal. It is designed to be turned down, not up. A sub has a happy range of power that it can handle safely, the rms power rating is a good guide to follow for general everyday use for the person who wants to listen to his / her music. Underpowering the sub again is fine, it will play all day long, the trick is to have the gain set properly and prevent the clipping which cause the dreaded sss.

Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: April 05, 2004 at 9:11 PM / IP Logged  
What he said... amp gain question - Page 2 -- posted image.
Clean Install 
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Joined: January 03, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: April 05, 2004 at 9:19 PM / IP Logged  

  amp gain question - Page 2 -- posted image. YOu guys R the greatest, loved the sss, and the tack compairson

thanks again....for the knowledge....amp gain question - Page 2 -- posted image.

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each failure, then we can improve ourselves
netboy 
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Joined: March 02, 2004
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Posted: April 05, 2004 at 9:43 PM / IP Logged  
You guys rock.
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haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: April 06, 2004 at 11:28 AM / IP Logged  
I have been reading this list with great zeal and interest! Finally, somebody gets it! Thank you Forbidden and DYohn. I would like to add my own two cents, here if I could... And I am NOT saying you guys are wrong in ANY respect, just further clarifying... It is true, that low power can damage a speaker faster than high power can, however, it will typically happen to more delicate drivers (read: tweeters) first. What really happens is this: When an amplifier clips, it is producing a high level DC voltage, (how high depends on the amplifier rated output) but if you examine that DC voltage with enough resolution, you will see it is not really DC at all, but EXTREMELY high frequency AC, superimposed over a high level DC, and this happens because the transistor output devices cannot pass a true DC with any efficiency. This high level AC is treated as a DC by the relatively high inductance of a woofer voice coil, but as the actual AC waveform by a tweeter crossover network. When the tweeter crossover passes this on to the tweeter, the tweeter then is working at a duty cycle that is FAR too high, and the AVERAGE power seen by the tweeter VC is FAR too high, Even though the total power provided by the amplifier may be well within acceptable ratings for the tweeter... (example: a 25 watt amp on a 50 watt tweeter) and *pop*, we have sss. This does not apply the same for woofers. A woofer is a MUCH higher power dissapation device. If you have a woofer that is rated 500 watts, this is USUALLY the CONTINUOUS power that the voice coil can dissapate. This rating will be affected by the honesty and integrity of the manufacturer, but a good indication is: If the manufacturer will supply you with voice coil dimensions (length and height), thay are probably pretty honest about their ratings - nothing to be afraid of. If you get a woofer with a 20 ounce magnet and you see a power rating of 1000 watts, or if you are buying a 500 watt woofer for 15 bucks, RUN, do not walk, away. (This pretty much means ANYTHING you will be buying at a Swap-O-Rama). Back to what I was saying: I used a couple of phrases above that are again germaine to the discussion, AVERAGE POWER and DUTY CYCLE. If your 100 watt clipping amplifier is producing only 100 watts (at clipping) and you have a woofer rated an honest 500 watts, all that will likely happen is your tunes will sound like crap! It is not likely that you will damage the woofer quickly, (oh, do not get me wrong, it WILL damage it eventually, ESPECIALLY if you driver is in a generic box, as opposed to a box that is built based on the specifications of the woofer!, but that is another discussion altogether) As examples of this previously stated theory I give you the stereo system in my Civic. I have 80 watts (x2) running the Infinity tweeters (rated 10 watts) in my doors, 370 watts (x2) running the Morel MW-162 mid-bass drivers (rated 120 watts) 120 watts (x4) running the Eclipse 6X9 point source (with modified crossover and wiring input) and the Eclipse 4000 watt digital monster running the SW9122 from Eclipse (rated 1500 watts). I have NEVER replaced a single driver for lack of power, additionally, I can listen quite loudly, (on average) and because I have so much power, the amplifiers will never clip should a dynamic passage demand more power. Anyway, enough bragging, and I hope that this little note will help further the understanding of high vs. low power and speaker behavior when faced with either.
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: April 06, 2004 at 12:12 PM / IP Logged  

Thank you, haemphyst.  It's always good to get some of the actual technical details described.  I try to not get into the engineering side too heavily on here, since this forum is aimed at average users and installers, but your desciption is 100% right on and very germain to this discussion!

The bottom line is: you can use pretty much whatever equipment in whatever combination you choose so long as you know what yo are doing and have it set up correctly.  Overpower and underpower are both things that tend to plague the novice or people who don't really understand that audio is produced by electricity and that there are many physical phenomenon involved beyond brand names and the idiodic consumer demand to "make it loud."

By the way, how do those Morel's sound in a car?  I've used those drivers in home theatre center channels before, but not in a car...

haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: April 06, 2004 at 12:48 PM / IP Logged  
DYohn wrote:

Thank you, haemphyst.  It's always good to get some of the actual technical details described.  I try to not get into the engineering side too heavily on here, since this forum is aimed at average users and installers, but your desciption is 100% right on and very germain to this discussion!

The bottom line is: you can use pretty much whatever equipment in whatever combination you choose so long as you know what yo are doing and have it set up correctly.  Overpower and underpower are both things that tend to plague the novice or people who don't really understand that audio is produced by electricity and that there are many physical phenomenon involved beyond brand names and the idiodic consumer demand to "make it loud."

By the way, how do those Morel's sound in a car?  I've used those drivers in home theatre center channels before, but not in a car...

I absolutely L-O-V-E them... The mid-bass produced by them is amazing... (and a VERY acceptably fast midbass match to the Infinity ribbon tweeters) I do remove the standard "foam" from the rear, and stuff it with a thicker, denser plug of foam (experimentation dictates which and how much foam to use in the application) to raise the Fs and lower the Qts... (all at the expense of efficiency) makes them work a little better in the doors, and affords a lower crossover point (around 50Hz, if steep enough, I use 48dB) Nice and shallow too, they go righ in the doors of a Civic with power windows without any pods or mods... (you do have to use the frame of the stock speakers tho...) I never have really done any tests on them after the modification, so I cannot say where the factory specs end up after it. Suffice to say, if you just drop 'em in the doors, and if you are not judicious with your crossover point and slope, you'll beat 'em to death in pretty short order, seeing as how a door is so lossy as to approach an infinite baffle. With a Qts of .95 out of the box, you HAVE to do something! Expensive, at 120 bux each, retail, but worth every penny! Additionally, absolutely not loud, so most people tend to not be interested, but extremely accurate.
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