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Sub Box Design - Graph of Curves


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mrmsudawgs 
Copper - Posts: 145
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 22, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: February 22, 2005 at 10:18 AM / IP Logged  
I am using winISD software to design a vented speaker box for my F150 Supercab. I've read all the help guides and pretty much understand the basics. My question is this - the curve or graph the software generates shows a plot of HZ versus dB. I understand that anything under -3 dB will not be produced very well by the box
(1) What about the part of the curve that goes into the positive region of the graph - example +2 db. Is that a good thing or do I want my curve to ramp up to 0 dB and stay there?
(2) Tuning frequency - How do you know what you want your tuning or cut off frequency to be? My sub is rated down to 25 HZ. I'd like to have bass as low as possible (I understand that there are trade offs to deal with). Is there a rule of thumb for tuning frequency?
Thanks!
Mike
stevdart 
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Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: February 22, 2005 at 11:05 AM / IP Logged  

1.  Neither good nor bad.  In a real box-in-car installation, the actual curve will be increased in the positive region due to cabin gain.  The graph you are working with juat gives you a guideline so that you can compare different enclosure/port sizes.  You will want to try for a graph that shows ~30 Hz at or above -6 db if possible.

You should program a filter in on that project to cut off sublevel freqs at 20 Hz. to protect the sub from over-excursion.  Work with the project with that filter added.  Typical rumble filters are 24 db/octave, I think.  It would be best to actually search for the filter you will use and use its crossover order.  The amp may even have one.

2. The port will make the enclosure loudest at the tuned frequency.  You should try to get it as low as possible, and within one octave below Fs ( your case at or below 25 Hz (if that is the Fs) and above 13 Hz.)  Since freqs below 20 Hz are rumble and will be filtered out at a steep slope, you can tune anywhere around 25 Hz.

A good way to see how the WinISD program calculates the T/S parameters and decides on everything, is to just click on a few of the pre-programmed drivers that are listed, such as the Image Dynamics.  Click through all the dialogue boxes and look at parameters, volume, tuning freq, etc.  Then you'll see what the calculators are trying to achieve.  You'll also see that there are different allignments available for vented enclosures and have names like Quasi-Butterworth and Chebyshev.  Look at the parameters of the drivers the program chooses to put in the Chebyshev catagory, for instance. 

It's all related to Q.  I'm going to quote haemphyst here with what he wrote about Q a few months ago:

"Generally speaking, the lower the Q a system has, the thinner the bass will sound. A Q of .5 will sound very thin for most people, but it will offer the lowest overall cutoff frequency. It will have a higher F3, but due to the VERY shallow slope of the rolloff, the driver will go deeper in it's overall frequency response. It will have lower power handling, but you will have the absolute smoothest response with a minimum of resonant peaks, both output and impedance.

A Q of .707 is what most people call "max-flat". It will offer good power handling with reasonable rolloff and extension. It will do this also with a decent trade off in resonant peaks. It will usually sound pretty good.

A Q of 1.1 is a maximum power handling enclosure, and will sound like CRAP. Their response is VERY boomy, with many high level peaks in output AND impedance. They will not go very deep at all. It usually happens when an enclosure is too small for the driver."

haemphyst 11-22-04

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
kfr01 
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Joined: April 30, 2003
Posted: February 22, 2005 at 11:36 AM / IP Logged  
^^^^--------------- good post
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
mrmsudawgs 
Copper - Posts: 145
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 22, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: February 22, 2005 at 1:06 PM / IP Logged  
Thanks for the reply. I'm new at this so please forgive.
(1) About filters - I can select passive or active filters and a confusing diagram appears. What exactly am I to do with this information.
(2) After I select a filter - can I achieve these results with a cross-over? I guess I don't understand how to take the filter information from Winisd and put it into a real life application. Am I putting some type of filter inline with my speaker or, again, can I achieve the same results with my cross-over.
(3) Does Winisd take into account cabin gain?
(4) What do I do with the "Phase Plot", "SPL", and "Group Delay" tabs?
(5) You said, "You'll also see that there are different allignments available for vented enclosures and have names like Quasi-Butterworth and Chebyshev. Look at the parameters of the drivers the program chooses to put in the Chebyshev catagory, for instance."
Where do I find these alignment names? I've searched all the tabs and can find nothing. Please excuse my ignorance.
Your help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
stevdart 
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Posted: February 22, 2005 at 9:33 PM / IP Logged  

The WinISD version that I'm familiar with is the newest alpha Pro version http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisdpro and I am no WinISD pro myself.  But if you have an older version you may want to download this one.  They also have a message board for questions.

Many of the quality amps that are used for sub bass output have an active subsonic filter, usually variable from 20-50Hz.  If your amp has one set it to between 20-30Hz.  Subsonic filters can be built, too, but is fairly complicated as you would be building a passive type.  I'll list some links for you to study, but you should look for either an amp with subsonic filter or a separate filter if you intend to use a vented enclosure.  After the rumble is filtered out, you'll use the LPF on the amp to limit the high freq that the sub gets.  So, in effect, the sub is filtered at the low point  and crossed-over at the high point.  This high point crossover frequency is also the low point crossover freq for the mids and highs in the car.

1.  Use the info in your amp manual for what db/octave crossover slopes it uses.  Once you know what filters or crossover slopes you will be using, then you can input that into the program.  Find more from their help or help forum.

Here are some links for info in general:

http://www.users.bigpond.com/bcolliso/active-filter.htm

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/prt/ported4.htm

http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/crossover/xoverfaqs.html

http://www.users.bigpond.com/bcolliso/active-filter.htm

https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/cross18db.asp

3.  How would the program know the details of your particular car or installation?  Remember, this program is also used for in-home woofer cabinets.

Other, please use the version I linked to.  As I said in the first post, choose one sub that is preloaded in the database.  I looked at the Image Dynamics IDQ12D4V.2 for reference as I wrote this.  Choose as a new project.  You get a dialogue box in the center of the screen.  Click through it from next to next....it chooses an allignment that is as smooth and close to .707 flat response as possible.  (Working with a vented project doesn't show allignment value, I think.  Working with a sealed box does...who knows?)

But, nevertheless, to compare one allignment to another....leave that graph on display and click "new project" again.  Choose the same sub again, and this time when the box displays "Super boom-box", change it to quasi-Butterworth instead.  Finish out the dialogue box and a new graph will appear with the first one.  You will see the difference in output:  one is a smoother rolloff, the other is a sharper bottom end rolloff but with extended low freq range. 

As I said, I am no guru with this program and you'll find other help through the 'winisd forum.  The links I gave you have a lot of info you can learn.  Remember that building a successful vented enclosure usually comes with a standard prerequisite of having first built successful sealed enclosures.  It's all about experience and knowledge, so learn as much as you can.  Here is one more article you will find useful:  http://www.ivhs.k12.il.us/~andrewt/veisd

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
mrmsudawgs 
Copper - Posts: 145
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 22, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: February 23, 2005 at 8:16 AM / IP Logged  
Okay - here is the latest. I've made all the physical measurements for my truck. The largest internal volume that I can possible get is 0.98 cubic feet. I want to use a 10 inch sub. Those two things are fixed. I can't get bigger in volume and I physically can not put a larger speaker in that box (or under my seat for that matter).
Now, since I know my box volume and my speaker size, I really can only use Winisd to pick the "optimum" speaker for my box. I have been plotting several woofers against one another but I can't figure out which one performs better in the box. How does one know, by looking at several curves at the same time, which speaker is performing the best?
Once I figure this out I can start building my box.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Mike
Sub Box Design - Graph of Curves - Last Post -- posted image.
stevdart 
Platinum - Posts: 5,816
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
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Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: February 23, 2005 at 8:32 AM / IP Logged  
Your first post indicated that you already had a sub that you were going to use, and it required a vented enclosure.  If you are looking for a 10" sub that will fit that space in your truck you should consider using a sealed box.  Start a thread asking opinions on good performance 10" subs in a .75  to .9 ft^3 enclosure.
mrmsudawgs 
Copper - Posts: 145
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 22, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: February 23, 2005 at 3:54 PM / IP Logged  
The truth is I had selected a sub but not purchased it.
Using winisd I put the same sub in both a vented and ported box. All variables being equal, the vented box's curve looked better and had a lower cutoff. This tells me that a vented enclosre will work beter than a sealed box. Even my "normal" installer has told me that a vented box usually out performs a sealed enclosure.
Am I misinterpeting the winisd data in some way? I want the best box regardless if its vented or sealed.
Thanks,
Mike
Sub Box Design - Graph of Curves - Last Post -- posted image. Sub Box Design - Graph of Curves - Last Post -- posted image. Sub Box Design - Graph of Curves - Last Post -- posted image.
stevdart 
Platinum - Posts: 5,816
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Posted: February 23, 2005 at 4:06 PM / IP Logged  
You have a size restriction, that's all I was referring to.  Try to find a driver that performs well in a vented enclosure that size.

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