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WinISD


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Master Asylum 
Silver - Posts: 400
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Joined: November 05, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: February 25, 2005 at 9:40 AM / IP Logged  
Wow, just tried this freeware, very nice. The tutorial is good(As long as you go along and don't change anything, added a 2nd driver on accident.) Man I wish I had money to go out and get all the tools and crap I need. Of course thaat'd be really dumb if I go to the IIT school this summer which provides the stuff. We'll see. Very nice program, I gotta work on it some more to develop some knowledge of what all I'm looking at, but well, sweet.
1998 Monte Carlo w/
Eclipse CD8454
2xRockford 5.25" Power 2-way T152C
2xRockford 6"x9" Punch 3-way FRC4369
1xMemphis 16-MCH1300 5-channel
2xKicker 12" L5 Solobaric-2 Ohm
stevdart 
Platinum - Posts: 5,816
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Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: February 25, 2005 at 9:49 AM / IP Logged  
As you get used to the way it works you'll find that you can change anything you like.  It's very versatile.  Read through the Help section completely and refer back to it when needed.
Steven Kephart 
Platinum - Posts: 1,737
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Joined: November 06, 2003
Location: Oregon, United States
Posted: February 25, 2005 at 10:48 AM / IP Logged  

Just keep in mind that we have found WinISD to be inaccurate.  It's a good tool to learn from, but when building enclosures remember that their enclosure sizes aren't correct.  Although I haven't played with it, our sales guy was saying that Unibox is more accurate.  You can get it here: http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm

The most accurate box software we have found is LspCad.  However it isn't freeware.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

stevdart 
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Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: February 25, 2005 at 10:58 AM / IP Logged  

Steven, you say that often.  I have recently started using Unibox, still in the infant stage...but I did a comparison with it and WinISD Pro using the Dayton RS150S-8 6" driver in a vented enclosure.  Given the same volume and tuning freq. the port size and length are identical (to within a few hundredths of a centimeter).  Given the same volume and port size the tuning freqs are just as true.  And given the same Fb and port size, the volume was the same within 1/10 liter.

WinISD Pro's graph also proved to be true when I tested optimizing for a 'wanted tuning peak' in response using Unibox.  The WinISD graph displayed the peaked response when I transferred the Unibox change in Fb to WinISD.

Unibox is much more sophisticated, to be sure, but WinISD Pro is very user-friendly and is indeed accurate when calculating volume, at least it was with the test I have done.  Have you done your own testing, by any chance?  What am I missing?

kfr01 
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Joined: April 30, 2003
Posted: February 25, 2005 at 11:33 AM / IP Logged  

I think the real beauty of WinISD is that it is pre-loaded with many popular drivers.

Anyway, I continue to be uninformed by WinISD naysayers about the _source_ of the error in WinISD.  Is it in the data files or is it in the calculation of the enclosure? 

I suspect that the error is in the data files rather than the calculations used to determine the box parameters.

New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Steven Kephart 
Platinum - Posts: 1,737
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Joined: November 06, 2003
Location: Oregon, United States
Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:41 PM / IP Logged  

We have found that the recommended enclosures given by WinISD (using the same parameters in all software programs) provide faulty enclosure specifications and faulty port lengths.  Like I said above, I have personally never played with Unibox but am just passing on what our sales guy said.  I will run your test past him though.  We use LspCad Pro as it has proven to be highly accurate. 

Ok, I just asked our sales guy about it.  Apparently WinISD isn't always wrong, but just sometimes.  I personally have ran into this as well when comparing a sub in LspCad and WinISD.  WinISD said .707 alignment was around 2 cubes, while LspCad said it was around 1.5 cubes.  Apparently it is also wrong at times with port length and vent mach.  Try doing your test with several different drivers and I'm sure eventually you will run into errors.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

stevdart 
Platinum - Posts: 5,816
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Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: February 25, 2005 at 1:05 PM / IP Logged  

Steven,

For a point of reference, who is it that you refer to when you say "we"?  You and this forum body;  you and a group of your friends;  you and your company?  I want to separate hearsay from fact.  I have made one comparison with Unibox (which you have recommended as more accurate than WinISD by virtue of someone else's opinion) and I've found WinISD to be accurate enough in the comparison for real life, and you have now said that you made one comparison with it to LspCad and found innacuracy.  One comparison each.

Math is math as you know.  A program will use its calculating formulas to find the result if given the parameters it needs.  If the program uses its built-in calculators to find volume for the desired tuning freq of one box, it will use that same calculator to find it for another.  Why would it change?  It's not on me to do more comparisons until I find a fault.  It's on you to find a concrete reason why WinISD (sometimes) errs in calculating volume....because it is you who paints the picture of a rogue program whenever someone on this forum asks about WinISD. 

I'm not in your league as far as knowledge of things having to do with speakers or the complex calculations in this field of science.  But I don't understand your reasoning for poo-pooing WinISD when the subject comes up.  People aren't investing anything but their time and could certainly benefit from what they get out of it.  In most cases, the actual construction of their box will be slightly off from what they set out to achieve anyway due to many reasons...that is to say, the real life enclosure is not normally going to be to the cu.in. that one sets out to make it.  And we both know that most people are going to use published specs instead of sophisticated individual driver testing because we are all not audio engineers.  So, close is what we are going to get anyway.

I think more people should try it for its relative ease-of-use so that they don't have to cry for help for each little detail of a build.

Steven Kephart 
Platinum - Posts: 1,737
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: November 06, 2003
Location: Oregon, United States
Posted: February 25, 2005 at 2:01 PM / IP Logged  

Sorry, I should have been a little more specific on that.  We (Adire) used to recommend WinISD and even had a link to it from our website.  However with many uses by my boss (Dan Wiggins), he came to the conclusion that it is inaccurate.  It was providing enclosure sizes, vent machs, and vent lengths that were way off.  To be honest, I only have that one instance for my own personal experience of its inaccuracy.  But I have found to not question my boss' word on things.  If he says it is inaccurate, he has plenty reason to believe this. 

I hope I don't come off as poo-pooing the program.  I just try to point out that you can't fully trust its results.  However I do try to point out that it is a great program to learn from, as I even stated in my first post.  I think warning the end user to double check first is fair, and might save them some time and money on an improper enclosure.  A quick e-mail the tech support of the company is a good idea anyway just to be sure.  I know that we offer free tech support on our products to our customers.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Master Asylum 
Silver - Posts: 400
Silver spacespace
Joined: November 05, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: February 25, 2005 at 2:02 PM / IP Logged  

Hmmm, the tension perhaps? Anyways...

Can you provide a list of possible drivers that create these such errors in WinISD by chance Stephen? I think that would help better to illustrate the point you are making(Which I believe is showing that there are faults in the WinISD program.)

1998 Monte Carlo w/
Eclipse CD8454
2xRockford 5.25" Power 2-way T152C
2xRockford 6"x9" Punch 3-way FRC4369
1xMemphis 16-MCH1300 5-channel
2xKicker 12" L5 Solobaric-2 Ohm
stevdart 
Platinum - Posts: 5,816
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: February 25, 2005 at 2:17 PM / IP Logged  

Thank you for the reply, and my questions were answered.  I will point out that I have used only the latest alpha version and am not aware of bugs in any of the earlier versions....which may be the case in Dan's experience with it.  It is entirely understandable why a company might not make a specific program recommendation but an individual would. 

And I would, too, recommend that it be used in conjuction with other means to find enclosure volume and port sizing...for example, double-checking vent air speed with other calculators like  this one.  I just happened to have WinISD opened to the file on that driver while I was working on it in Unibox because WinISD had an easier way to convert units of measurement than I could find in Unibox.  That's when I started doing some comparisons.

Otherwise, in-general comment about box-building to specific tuning:

Although difficult and time-consuming, port lengths may have the capacity to be adjusted after listening tests.  Some pre-made ports are made that way, so lengthening or shortening the length can be accomplished after everything is installed and tested.  The hard part is removing the driver every time you want to make a slight change in port length.  I've personally never done this, but I have popped out a port and replaced it with a longer length before.

......and as related to using a software program like WinISD Pro:

Use several sources of calculators to find answers.  Here is a list of calculators, formulas and general information that I refer to often.  Double-check all the data you've entered.  You will most likely find any mistakes you've made in entering parameter data by checking with other sources.  As with all things electrical where a change on one side of the equation results in a change on the other side (forbidden), a change in the program for tuning frequency will result in a corresponding change in port length.  In WinISD, you must flip back to the next tab from 'box' to 'vents' to find these changes.

All too often I see individuals (on this forum and elsewhere) complain that the program "gave me crazy port lengths and it's just wrong!"  Take the time to read all the Help info and play with the program until you fully understand it.  If you don't want to spend that much of your time - learning - to build one box then you should take your needs to your local custom audio shop.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
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