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bi-amping components correctly?


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97Avalonxls 
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Posted: March 04, 2005 at 9:30 AM / IP Logged  
that's exactly what i would say
kfr01 
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Posted: March 04, 2005 at 10:45 AM / IP Logged  

You don't gain the key benefits of bi-amping if you still use the passive crossovers. 

Some folks, DYohn included, like the voicing of passive crossovers.  Cool, great, wonderful.  I have absolutely no arguments against that.

However, this is NOT the type of bi-amping the Elliot article and others about true bi-amping are talking about.  Again, if you use the passive crossovers you lose just about all benefit of bi-amping. 

(Unless you do some sort of hybrid thing like haemphyst was talking about on that linked post.  I've never tried anything like that, so I can't speak to how effective it is.  My knee jerk reaction is that the different crossover points and the both active and passive crossovers might cause some phase problems that interfere with the very voicing we're trying to maintain... but I'm a noob when it comes to passive crossover design, so I'd like to hear DYohn's, Stevdart's, and Haemphyst's opinions on this).

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deocder 
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Posted: March 04, 2005 at 9:37 PM / IP Logged  
Another advantage of using the passive crossover is DC current protection. I'd hate to burn up my tweeters because of a DC transient introduced while turning the amp on or off.
Elliot provides a protection schematic here. Has anyone used something like this in their system? Is it overkill? Has anyone ever fried their tweeters because they did not use a protection circuit?
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haemphyst 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 10:11 AM / IP Logged  
kfr01 wrote:

You don't gain the key benefits of bi-amping if you still use the passive crossovers.

Some folks, DYohn included, like the voicing of passive crossovers. Cool, great, wonderful. I have absolutely no arguments against that.

However, this is NOT the type of bi-amping the Elliot article and others about true bi-amping are talking about. Again, if you use the passive crossovers you lose just about all benefit of bi-amping.

It is true, you do not gail all of the benefits of bi-amping if you maintain the passive crossovers... Damping is the biggest loss - it goes out the window. However there have been discussions on this very website (I'll see if I can locate some of them) about the alleged benefits of damping, and I for one STILL don't know how I feel about it in regards to bass frequencies - the jury is still out, but I *DO* feel pretty stongly that in higher frequencies, say above 250 or so, DF has LITTLE to do with anything. If you leave the midbass crossover in place, whether you are bi-amping or not, the DF is going to be adversely affected below this aforementioned 250Hz point.
( Here's a few articles about damping factor...) Some of the links don't actually have to do with damping factor in our sense of the discussion, but others do...
kfr01, I am just curious, though... what about the(se) article(s) make(s) you suggest that one or the other of the articles is not what the OTHER article is talking about?
kfr01 wrote:

(Unless you do some sort of hybrid thing like haemphyst was talking about on that linked post. I've never tried anything like that, so I can't speak to how effective it is. My knee jerk reaction is that the different crossover points and the both active and passive crossovers might cause some phase problems that interfere with the very voicing we're trying to maintain... but I'm a noob when it comes to passive crossover design, so I'd like to hear DYohn's, Stevdart's, and Haemphyst's opinions on this).

Generally speaking, I would go one way or the other as well, but I was just trying to suggest one possible way of getting a few benefits of both worlds. There is no free lunch, we all know this, but in some cases there may be a cheap lunch, and a few trades in one direction or the other might account for an acceptable "loss".
Passive crossovers are dirty places, and generally, I do not like to go there. I am a very strong proponent of active crossovers, and now that I have used digital active crossovers, I'll probably never go back. The WORST of the crossover distortions (primarily phase angle distortions) can be easily fixed, by simply reversing wires at the driver or the amp. (The rules following are applicable to both active (analog only - not digital) and passive components.) EACH 6dB of crossover slope on the high-pass will be a +90°, and EACH 6dB of crossover slope on the low pass will be a -90°. In this case, though, a plus does not cancel a minus out. They are still additive, so if you have a tweeter and a woofer, each at 6dB slopes, one the tweeter will be 180° out of phase from the woofer - which can be fixed by reversing the wires on the tweeter - voila! back in phase. For each 180° of phase, all you have to do is reverse the leads again.
deocder wrote:
Another advantage of using the passive crossover is DC current protection. I'd hate to burn up my tweeters because of a DC transient introduced while turning the amp on or off.
Elliot provides a protection schematic here. Has anyone used something like this in their system? Is it overkill? Has anyone ever fried their tweeters because they did not use a protection circuit?
That seems like a lot of work... There really is no such thing as overkill when it comes to our systems, now is there? If overkill were not an option, we wouldn't be having this kind of discussion, now would we? LOL
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
DYohn 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 10:52 AM / IP Logged  

This is a good discussion.  In general, here's my opinion.

For car audio where the gear is relatively cheap and available, it is easier to use a full-active system.  Although I am a proponent for passive crossovers (and it is their "dirt" than gives them much of their character!) in cars it is easier to setup and easier to get 'right" to use active crossovers on the pre-amp side.

In homes and in HT, I prefer to use passive crossovers with bi- (or tri-) amp setups.  It can create a much warmer (i.e. dirty) sound and you can compensate for specific driver shortcomings with a few clever circuit tweaks that are simply not possible - or not easily possible - with active crossovers.  In cars these little peaks and valleys are largely not noticable since a car is a terrible place for critical audio.  But in a theatre they jump out and smack you on the head, so passives are the better choice to compensate for them.

Damping Factor = (Load Impedance) / (Output Impedance)  load Impedence is the loudspeaker SYSTEM Z and Output impedence is the output impedence of the amplifier (usually normallized at 1Khz.)  Load impedence is the total load presented at the amplifier teminals, including crossover, loudspeaker voice coil(s) and speaker wire.  DF has no real meaning above 1200Hz..

Damping (AKA cone control) is critically important in low-frequency systems where accuracy is the desired outcome.  Too low DF will result in "flabby" sounding bass with a LF rise in both impedence and distortion and loss of definition below about 100Hz.  A completely un-dampened speaker system will easily exceed the woofer's mechanical limits and cause it to "bottom out" and can fry a voice coil.  HOWEVER, a damping factor of 10 or greater is really all that is needed. 

Since even the crappiest car stereo amplifiers have output impedence of no more than 0.25 ohms, a load impedence of at least 2.5 ohms creates a DF of 10.  Higher load impedence and/or lower output impedence creates better DF.  But paying a ton of money (or sacraficing power utilization) to create very high DF numbers is largely meaningless and a waste of money.

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kfr01 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 12:31 PM / IP Logged  

haemphyst wrote:
kfr01 wrote:
However, this is NOT the type of bi-amping the Elliot article and others about true bi-amping are talking about. Again, if you use the passive crossovers you lose just about all benefit of bi-amping.
kfr01, I am just curious, though... what about the(se) article(s) make(s) you suggest that one or the other of the articles is not what the OTHER article is talking about?

Did I suggest that one article was different than the others?  I threw the modifier "true" in there simply to distinguish it from the "bi-amping" that home audio manufacturers talk about with their 5-way binding posts that still use the passive crossover.  I wasn't trying to say anything more.  I realize that wasn't the greatest sentence in the world - I didn't get much sleep this week.  bi-amping components correctly? - Page 2 -- posted image.

haemphyst wrote:
[
kfr01 wrote:

(Unless you do some sort of hybrid thing like haemphyst was talking about on that linked post. I've never tried anything like that, so I can't speak to how effective it is. My knee jerk reaction is that the different crossover points and the both active and passive crossovers might cause some phase problems that interfere with the very voicing we're trying to maintain... but I'm a noob when it comes to passive crossover design, so I'd like to hear DYohn's, Stevdart's, and Haemphyst's opinions on this).

Generally speaking, I would go one way or the other as well, but I was just trying to suggest one possible way of getting a few benefits of both worlds. There is no free lunch, we all know this, but in some cases there may be a cheap lunch, and a few trades in one direction or the other might account for an acceptable "loss".
Passive crossovers are dirty places, and generally, I do not like to go there. I am a very strong proponent of active crossovers, and now that I have used digital active crossovers, I'll probably never go back. The WORST of the crossover distortions (primarily phase angle distortions) can be easily fixed, by simply reversing wires at the driver or the amp. (The rules following are applicable to both active (analog only - not digital) and passive components.) EACH 6dB of crossover slope on the high-pass will be a +90°, and EACH 6dB of crossover slope on the low pass will be a -90°. In this case, though, a plus does not cancel a minus out. They are still additive, so if you have a tweeter and a woofer, each at 6dB slopes, one the tweeter will be 180° out of phase from the woofer - which can be fixed by reversing the wires on the tweeter - voila! back in phase. For each 180° of phase, all you have to do is reverse the leads again.

Very nice explanation.  I haven't seen the above paragraph said so succinctly.  I've also seen the articles on damping factor you posted. 

So, here's tangential question for you all that I've been curious about.  If damping factor doesn't matter, and if tiny levels of thd are inaudible, what other criteria should be looked at to evaluate amplifiers?  Intuition tells me that next to nothing is gained from buying very expensive amplifiers.  Is this true?  How and in what way do expensive amplifiers produce better quality sound? 

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haemphyst 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 5:19 PM / IP Logged  
My important specs are:
1) S/N ratio - (the higher the better) - I hate that "sssssss" in quiet passages and between songs.
2) Slew rate - (in volts per microsecond) How fast will the amplifier respond to a given signal?
3) Damping factor - I know, I know... but I bought the hype YEARS ago, and now I don't want to let go of it. I *DO* however place WAY LESS emphasis on this spec than the previous two.
Your intuition is correct - an amp is an amp is an amp. It's job is to make a small signal bigger, and match impedances between source (signal) and destination (speaker). You can get better by spending more, but I think that in amplifiers - more than any other component besides wires - you reach the point of diminishing returns faster...
I will admit, I have heard some SPECTACULAR sounding high-dollar amps in my day, but I have heard some "budget" amps sound just as good, for FAR less money - making them a better "bang for the buck", and providing a better SAF in the long run...
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
kfr01 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 7:48 PM / IP Logged  
Alright, thanks. 2 follow up questions:
1) At what point is S/N ratio a moot issue, for all practical purposes? 100db? 120?
2) I haven't seen many manufacturers that list Slew. Why? How do I find this?
3) A comment: I suppose even if the damping factor spec doesn't mean too much it _might_ still be used as an indicator of build quality; not quite a direct connection to quality, but just a variable that may infer it.
i.e. while a low damping factor may not mean that an amplifier is of a low quality, a high damping factor probably (more times than not) infers high build quality.
Would you consider this logic accurate?
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haemphyst 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 10:00 PM / IP Logged  
Good questions...
1: For all intents and purposes, I look for around 105 to 110 dB. Beyond that, The human ear is pretty fallible, and while the ear is more sensitive than that, overall, conciously, you will not likely hear much beyond that.
2: Your better quality mfr's WILL list slew rate, and by default, if it is listed, most likely, you have a better quality company, one that is not afraid to list all of it's specs.
3: Yes. A better amp build quality WILL usually have a better damping factor. Again, if a company is willing to report its (possibly) low DF, you are more likely dealing with a company willing to not stretch the specs.
Your logic does work for me...
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
deocder 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 11:42 PM / IP Logged  
Wow! Great stuff! I had no idea about the phase shift relative to the crossover slope. I wonder if manufacturers of passive crossovers take this into account, since phase is also relative to the position of the speaker. There are are so many variations possible....
I chceked out the specs on my amps....not sure how they rate in the scheme of things though.....not that it matters at this point, they are definitely being installed.
S/N - >100 dB
DF - >400 at output connector
Slew rate - >30 V/us
At lease they were listed...
I'm not to clear on weather or not you guys use something to protect the tweeter when using an active crossover system. Could you clarify?
Also, are there active crossovers that have variable phase adjustability? I'll search for the answer, but if so, do you find that beneficial?
I feel like i'm digging way deep into the particulars..... I guess thats the perfectionist inside me though.
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