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Unibox and T/S Parameters


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bogey 
Copper - Posts: 68
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Posted: March 13, 2006 at 2:34 PM / IP Logged  
I downloaded Unibox after seeing it recommended on the site, but I've had some trouble finding a couple of the T/S Parameters. These are the parameters that it requires:
Fs
Re
Qms
Qes
Sd
Vas
Xmax peak
(Le)
(Le2)
(Re2)
Nominal Power
Most of the drivers I have found list all params. except "Le2" and "Re2". Where do I find these?
Also, I assume "Nominal Power" refers to the RMS watts listing (I think this is called Pmax^4)?
Thanks.
haemphyst 
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Posted: March 13, 2006 at 4:37 PM / IP Logged  
The manufacturer of your woofer SHOULD be able to provide you with any T/S parameters you need. If they can't or won't, I would IMMEDIATELY start looking for a far more reputable or respectable woofer manufacturer.
Generally speaking though, Le2 and Re2 are minimal requirements. Le, and DCR are NOT minimal requirements, and should be taken directly from the driver for which you are designing your enclosure.
Finally, yes, nominal power is the same as RMS.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
bogey 
Copper - Posts: 68
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Posted: March 13, 2006 at 5:29 PM / IP Logged  
haemphyst wrote:
Generally speaking though, Le2 and Re2 are minimal requirements. Le, and DCR are NOT minimal requirements, and should be taken directly from the driver for which you are designing your enclosure.
Thanks for the feedback. I have been checking out the Adire Koda 10 at Acoustic-Visions, but they don't list Le2 or Re2. Adire's own site doesn't list these params. Even at the Theile-Small Database I don't notice where they list Le2/Re2 for any of their woofers. Since you say they are "minimal requirements" could I just put a 0 in the blank?
Also, I've never seen a listing for DCR. What's that?
Thanks.
DYohn 
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Posted: March 13, 2006 at 5:37 PM / IP Logged  

Set Le2 and Re2 to zero.  DCR is the same thing as Re.

https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/theile.asp

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bogey 
Copper - Posts: 68
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Posted: March 13, 2006 at 5:46 PM / IP Logged  
Thanks DYohn.
stevdart 
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Posted: March 13, 2006 at 9:35 PM / IP Logged  

That's what I do...I've never needed those values. 

Here's a tip on using Unibox with a less-than-complete set of given parameters:  You know that the values in blue are changeable, and the values in red are calculated by the program.  The top left set of boxes under "Drive Unit Parameters" allows you to fill in several T/S parameters.  Sometimes you'll find one of those missing in the supplied data;  often it's Sd.  You can look at the changes the program makes to the parameters in red in the middle column, namely Bl, Mms and Cms, according to what you input into the left side.  So if Sd is missing from your data sheet, you can try some different numbers in that block until the numbers in red correspond closely to other supplied data.

In other words, watch the middle column values that the program calculates to see if anything appears far off from the given data.  If something is off, there will be a correction you can make in the inputs to get it right.

And this:  there's a box over in the right column that says "Drive Unit Configuration".  Make sure that is set to "Single drive unit" as you input supplied parameters (although it should come up that way by default).  If you are working up a multi-woofer box, change that Drive Unit Configuration box to reflect what you have only after all the parameters for one woofer have been inputted.

After you've started a project, use the 'Save' function under "Design Database" to keep your woofer on file.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
bogey 
Copper - Posts: 68
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Posted: March 13, 2006 at 10:17 PM / IP Logged  
Great, thanks for the tip.
Do you ever get the error message on Unibox that says: "Macros are disabled because the security level is set to High and a digitally signed Trusted Certificate is not attached to the macros. To run the macros, change the security level to a lower setting (not recommended), request the macros be signed by the author using a certificate issued by a Certificate Authority."
I have tried all the things they say to help and nothing works. I have tried adjusting the security levels and I still get the error. I didn't see a spot to enable it to trust this author. I didn't even see anything about a Unibox Trusted Certificate. May be this is just something that I'll have to email the Unibox guys on. So right now my program isn't working well.
I also downloaded Speaker Works, but have had limited success in charting responses. I guess I just need to spend more time with it.
Thanks for you help.
stevdart 
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Posted: March 13, 2006 at 10:47 PM / IP Logged  

You'll probably have to change a security setting in your security software.  As I understand it, macros in general are sometimes used maliciously.  I must have my settings alright in Zone Alarm because I click on "enable macros" and everything is okay.  (...but don't ask me what a macro is!)

Speaker Workshop has a Help file that would make a small book.  If you read it completely you should get onto the right track, and then it's all about working with a setup and experimenting with results. It does take time.  Here's a few things to get a project started:

The top drop-down toolbar is where you start, add something, anything.  You'll eventually see those tools in the toolbar change to different things depending on what you have working at the moment.  But to start, choose 'Resource', then 'New'...then choose 'Network'.  You will name your project here.  Everything you add will be installed in this network.  Using the same tool, choose 'Driver'.  Input the drivers and their parameters that you want to work with.  This is where you also import .frd and .zma files (freq response and impedance) into your network.  I use SPL Trace to make these files from manufacturer's published graphs like these.

You'll get a screen opened with nothing but a symbol that reads "Source".  One side is positive and the other is negative, and it represents the power supply.  Everything in the network is built onto that source.  Insert the drivers into the network by choosing 'Network', 'Insert', and pick the drivers you have entered into the database.  With supplied power and drivers, it's now a matter of designing the crossover.  You can experiment and get familiar with how it all operates by right-clicking on the open window and choosing 'Insert' and then choosing some stock crossovers and impedance compensation circuits...just to see how the program links things together to form a schematic.  Also, right click and choose 'Properties'...check the blocks under the 'General' tab.  Name this project, and go back up to the toolbar and choose 'Network', 'Calculate response'.  If you have all the blocks checked, some files will appear in the left column.  These will show the freq response and impedance of your project.  The 'auto-overview chart' is a third one that shows up, and you'll find that the chart is a valuable working tool.  With the chart function, you can combine several individual crossed-over driver responses within the big picture, so you can see exactly how these crossovers are working.  Here is an example from the project I'm currently building:

3test_combined_chart.jpg (BTW, that response crosses to a powered sub that I have, which is store-bought.  I have to imagine the crossover at 80 Hz.  Sometimes you just have to picture a result based on what you can reasonably assume.  I'm also assuming a certain amount of SPL from venting both woofers, although I think if I dig a little deeper into this I could find a way to successfully import the box response (from Unibox) into the chart, too.  But I was using this chart primarily for exacting the crossover points.)

By this time you should be up and running and will have a good idea of how to work it from here.  Good luck.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
bogey 
Copper - Posts: 68
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Joined: October 23, 2003
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Posted: March 14, 2006 at 9:08 PM / IP Logged  
Thanks for the info. Where do you get SPL Trace? Do you only have to use SPL Trace with Speaker Works(Not Unibox)?
I got Unibox program up and running now. I had to email Unibox and they replied with the solution. It was one of those Microsoft quarks. You know, hold your right leg up, turn your head to the left, and say pretty pretty please! Unibox and T/S Parameters -- posted image.
stevdart 
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Posted: March 14, 2006 at 9:21 PM / IP Logged  

Glad you got that solved!

http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/utility/spl.htm

It takes awhile to get the hang of this, too.  Unibox uses the T/S parameters alone.  But you can export the file you make in Unibox as a .frd file into wherever you store these files, and pick it up in one of the other shared programs.  Unibox will also allow you to import a correction filter, so you can move one to the other program or vise versa.  I've still got plenty of things to learn with these programs, but you know how it is when you want to work up a project:  you find enough to work it out knowing you're still leaving some other things on the table.

Seems to me that if I were looking at someone who felt he needed to completely master any of these programs before he started working on his project, I would be looking at a robot.  Passion takes over, and then you learn as you go.

IIRC, here's how I initially installed these FRD Consortium programs:  After downloading all of the available setup files into My Documents, I went into Power Desk (equivalent of Explorer) and created a new file under Program Files...calling it FRD Consortium.  Then when I unzipped each of those programs, I created sub files with their name under that main file.  I found just a few programs that were easy enough to get right into (I linked the set and associated tutorial early in this thread) and built upon some, not all, of those.  Primarily, I work with Unibox, SPL Tracer and SPL View, and Speaker Workshop.  Some of the others seemed too hard to get the hang of, but I've still got a few years left in me!

If you get good with any of those other ones, post something up in the forum about it.  I'll want to learn what you did.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
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