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opinions on wiring tweeters differently


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Sad, little man 
Copper - Posts: 125
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 28, 2005
Posted: January 27, 2007 at 5:12 PM / IP Logged  
The way I have my car set up right now, I'm running an Eclipse 3122 amp powering a set of 7" door speakers and 3/4" dome tweeters, also on the door panel. They're all run through a set of custom crossovers I built for them. Originally the tweeters were severely out of balance with the woofers, (too loud) so I put in a variable attenuator so I could control the tweeter volume to my liking.
The head unit's rear channels provide the power for the small 3.5" speakers in each headrest, and the front channels are unused because I'm using the amp in place of them. But I was thinking, if the tweeters are clearly a little overpowered since I have the attenuator hooked into them that's essentially bleeding off power, why not just wire them into the head unit's front channels? They'd be getting the same signal as the woofers, just from a different amplifier source, and the lower amount of power would just mean I wouldn't have to attenuate them as much. So I'd be increasing the power available to the whole system by utilizing the HU's front channels, and I'd be using it more efficiently because I wouldn't need to attenuate the tweeters as much. Anything wrong with that idea?
'96 Mazda Miata
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: January 27, 2007 at 5:19 PM / IP Logged  
The tweeters sound too loud because they are likely more efficient than the woofers, and because they are probably closer to your ears.  It's not because they are getting too much power.  Your pad solution is the more correct one and the normal one.
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Sad, little man 
Copper - Posts: 125
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 28, 2005
Posted: January 27, 2007 at 5:27 PM / IP Logged  
Yes, but couldn't I get better performance out of everything by splitting up the work on the front channel between the amp and the HU? Needing the L-pad in there just tells me that the HU probably has plenty of power to run just the tweeters to my liking.
'96 Mazda Miata
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: January 27, 2007 at 5:35 PM / IP Logged  

Sad, little man wrote:
Yes, but couldn't I get better performance out of everything by splitting up the work on the front channel between the amp and the HU? Needing the L-pad in there just tells me that the HU probably has plenty of power to run just the tweeters to my liking.

Not usually, no.

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Sad, little man 
Copper - Posts: 125
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 28, 2005
Posted: February 05, 2007 at 9:24 PM / IP Logged  
Ok, so against that advice I got curious and re-wired the tweets over to the head unit. Sounds good, but for some reason the treble seems harsh at higher volumes. I think it could be attributed to one of two things.
I think that either my tweeters are clipping at levels where the mids are still clean due to the tweets being hooked to the less powerful head unit amplifier. Or, something else I just came up with, is perhaps that due to the gain settings on the amplifier, the tweeter volume actually goes up at a steeper slope than the mids. ie let's say each click of the volume on the head unit increases the mids by 'X'db due to its gain setting and each click increases the tweets by 'X'+1db due to the head unit's own volume scale, so what sounds good at a moderate volume gets washed out by treble at higher volumes, and if I turn the tweets down with the L-pad, then I end up with too little treble at lower volumes.
The gain on the amplifier is already set to the maximum, so there's no way to try to match the volume slope of the tweets if that's the problem. And before you jump down my throat about gains, I did that due to the fact that the headrest speakers are normally too loud since they're so close to my head, so setting the front speaker gain up high allows me to not use as much fade forward on the head unit to balance the sound. The gain may be high, but it's not like I'm also cranking the head unit and pushing the amp into clipping.
Another benefit is it allows the amp to get as much signal as possible at as low a volume as possible, so the head unit's front channels driving the tweets have as low a volume as possible in relation to the mids so I can dial in as little attenuation as possible to quiet them down and use what power the head unit has most efficiently. I guess to put it simply I'm trying to keep the head unit's channels as quiet as possible as opposed to the amp as loud as possible.
So is there a good way to determine if my tweets are clipping at a given volume? I've found it's harder to hear than clipping from mids and bass. I really wish I had an oscilloscope to set all this with. opinions on wiring tweeters differently -- posted image. Perhaps I should just re-wire everything to the amp, but I really believe that if there's untapped power in the head unit, it's beneficial to try to bi-amp the tweeters with it and have the most possible available power in the system.
'96 Mazda Miata
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: February 06, 2007 at 7:56 AM / IP Logged  
Most likely it is the HU amp giving out. There is only 12v available for that - no switching power supply.
12X12=144(/4)=36(/2)=18w peak to feed the tweeters. Not enough in my opinion...
That is not to say that is the ONLY issue. Your second mentioned issue could be very much coming into play. The linearity between the HU internal amp and RCA outputs is also probably not matching up.
It is entirely possible that the running everything off the amp, using fixed (carbon, not wire) resistors for attenuation, might be your best bet.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Sad, little man 
Copper - Posts: 125
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 28, 2005
Posted: February 06, 2007 at 9:02 AM / IP Logged  
What's the advantage of fixed resistors? I mean, it's possible that I could get the correct resistance values by adjusting the pad and then wiring in the appropriate resistors in its place.
'96 Mazda Miata
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: February 06, 2007 at 10:32 AM / IP Logged  

Your theory about gain setting is dead wrong.  You are probably clipping your amp without detecting it.  Have you scoped it?  If you need to attenuate your headrest speakers (which I would remove if I was designing your system as they will only do harm to your overall performance) then use your L-pads on THEM.

You need to pad your tweeters so they match the sensitivity of your woofers.  Using a L-pad is a cheap and dirty way to do it, sure, but it will always (always) add noise and shift the Xover point since L-pads are generally inductive loads.  You should calculate the amount of pad needed and use a fixed voltage divider built from non-inductive resisters.  Are you still using those overly complex 4th order crossovers you posted a while back?  They could be part of the problem as well as they simply contain way too many elements to be reliable unless you used VERY high quality (read: expensive) parts to build them.

Give me the makes/models of the two speakers you are trying to use as your home-made component set and describe their relative mounting positions, and I'll design a crossover network for you to try.

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Sad, little man 
Copper - Posts: 125
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 28, 2005
Posted: February 06, 2007 at 12:10 PM / IP Logged  
Yeah, the crossover plans (well, values, I went ahead and used multiple caps in each section to match the values exactly) and speaker selection was by someone on another board who installed a similar system into his car. I did use audio quality 18ga air core inductors, non-inductive resistors, and electrolytic capacitors good to 200W in the crossovers, they should be reliable. The speakers I'm running in the doors are these as recommended.
However, the company now makes a 4ohm version of the same speaker with slight differences to make it more suited to car audio, and if I build a whole new set of crossovers, I'd build them for the 4ohm version as this would make things a lot more efficient.
The tweeters are a pair of these.
I found a good interior picture of a car identical to mine online, you can see the tweeters mounted up high on the door panel, and the woofers in the normal spot. My speakers are still in the factory locations.
opinions on wiring tweeters differently -- posted image.
If you'd like to design some crossovers for these, by all means... I'm probably going to switch my door woofers to that 4ohm speaker after a while, and that'll mean I'll need to have new crossovers anyway.
As far as the headrest speakers, I want to keep those, because they are a godsend in a convertible, especially at highway speeds. They're really the only way to hear anything with all the added noise.
Thanks again for all the help with everything. I have a lot of mechanical knowledge dealing with cars, but the electrical side, especially when getting into stuff as precise as audio, is still a little foggy.
'96 Mazda Miata
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: February 06, 2007 at 3:18 PM / IP Logged  

OK, first off just looking at the two drivers you've chosen, they are a very bad match and that could be part of your frustration.  I can't put together a good crossover for those two that I would recommend to anyone.  What is your crossover frequency?  I would not recommend crossing that Dayton woofer any higher than about 1500Hz, and the little Dayton tweeter is not much good below 3000Hz.  So you have a big huge natural hole in the response, right in a critical frequency band for music for speech, and forcing the tweeter to play too low will eventually destroy it and make it sound very ragged while it dies.  A much better tweeter to use with those Daytom woofers is something like THIS.  You have to pay a bit more than $5 to get a tweeter that can reach into the upper midrange like that Dayton woofer requires.  Or get a better woofer that can be crossed up around 3KHz, maybe like THIS one (which I use in my home.)

Also you say you are using electrolytic caps in the crossover.  This is generally a no-no unless you are using very expensive bypass caps, and even then electrolytics can cause all sorts of sonic issues not the least of which is high frequency harshness and distortion and a very thin, shrill sound.  You need to use good crossover caps, metalized poly at the least, like THESE.  A good passive crossover generally will cost more to build than the drivers it is controlling.

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