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Debate, Stiffening Capacitors


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jmelton86 
Gold - Posts: 1,228
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Joined: February 07, 2007
Location: South Carolina, United States
Posted: April 05, 2007 at 12:45 AM / IP Logged  

Thanks, aznboi3644! If his eyes are still closed after this, I give up.

Much love.

2013 Kia Rio -90a alternator
DDX470HD GTO14001 GTO1014D (x3)
Big3 in 1/0G
1/0G to GTO14001
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: April 05, 2007 at 2:09 AM / IP Logged  
jmelton, can you send me a link to that yahoo forum? I'd be intersted in seeing it. Sounds like some yahoo thinks he knows what he's talking about! ROFL I'll try to set him straight.
Oh, and for the record, batteries DO create power using chemical reactions, but they cannot do it forever, thus the need for an alternator. The primary purpose of a battery in a car is for starting the car, nothing else. While they CAN provide instantaneous burps of power for use by accessories, the alternator is the primary source of ALL power in a car.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
jmelton86 
Gold - Posts: 1,228
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Joined: February 07, 2007
Location: South Carolina, United States
Posted: April 05, 2007 at 2:13 AM / IP Logged  

Sure haemphyst. Um, just type in 'yahoo answers' in a search engine. Go to 'cars and transportation' at the left of the screen. Go to 'car audio'. Its pretty easy from there. His screen name is sparky3489. BTW, what's your yahoo ID so I can 'look-out' for ya? Mine is jmelton86 there as well.

Or,     http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/;_ylt=AITFyXmaSVc8DfhIYizB11dOxgt.?link=list&sid=396545177

Pieces.

2013 Kia Rio -90a alternator
DDX470HD GTO14001 GTO1014D (x3)
Big3 in 1/0G
1/0G to GTO14001
loosingmymind 
Copper - Posts: 103
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Joined: August 24, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: April 05, 2007 at 10:20 AM / IP Logged  
The only good use for a capacitor that I have ever found is with the 1400watt Kinetic that I used for SPL burps. That is the total extent of it's use; asnd even then it was only good for very short term stiffening! That's it.
David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
jeffchilcott 
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Joined: April 11, 2002
Location: United States
Posted: April 05, 2007 at 11:01 AM / IP Logged  
For a 2 second tone in my vehicle, here are the results I found last summer in testing
Before I go into my testing, DO NOT TRY THIS!   The voltages and impedance loads I use are not safe for daily driving
(6) Kicker ZX1500.1's
(6) Kicker S10L7D2's
(8) The "V" 16/12 volt hybrid batteries
The amps I have are rated at 750X1@4 1500X1@2 both at 14.4 volts
MY batteries under a full charge and rest sit at 17.94 volts
My nominal impedance of each woofer is 1 ohm, the actual impedance is actually .93, and the impedance with box rise is 1.51 ohm at 63 HZ
So now let do some math with ohms law
Amps were measured via 2 meters to read 68 volts and 48 amps on the output side of the amp, roughly 3300 watts
So we know watts (3300) we know voltage at start (17.94) where does that get us?
3300/17.94= 183.94Amps    Guess what I measured on the power leads of my amps?    over 220 amps of curent draw!
Lets try again another way
Ve know voltage is 68 volts coming out of the amp and resistance .9 at rest, 1.5 SO
68 x 68 / 1.5 = 3082      68 x 68 / .9 = 5137    figure the average 5137 + 3082 / 2 = 4109    4109 x .8   (for 80% eff.) = 3287....wow right again
Ohms law is ohms law, with the power draw I have with 8 batteries.   I can play my system for only 2 seconds without my betteries losing resting voltage, I typically can burpo it once for 2 seconds and let it sit and the batteries will re settle where they were.   But once I do that again, they will typically set at 17.2-17.4
Each battery I use has 120 amp/hour rating, and also has a 1800 amp burst discharge rating
I know there are not any Cap's out there that could magically fix this power draw situation!
2009 0-1000 Trunk WR 154.0DB 2009 1001+ Trunk WR
2007 USACI World Champion
2007 World Record
2006 USACI Finals 2nd Place
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,052
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: April 05, 2007 at 11:09 AM / IP Logged  
screenname: ddmcp2000 (preferred, thank you) and/or haemphyst
I couldn't even read some of that stuff... I gave up! That is one of the biggest garbage forums I have ever had the misopportunity to trip across..
Unsee! Unsee!
;)
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
supersix4 
Copper - Posts: 71
Copper spacespace
Joined: July 11, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: April 05, 2007 at 11:22 AM / IP Logged  

kassdog wrote:
Don't you think caps are useful to someone who just put in some $300 amp and sub package and notices the lights dim a little. So wouldn't it be better for him to purchase that $80 cap or purchase a couple hundred dollar alt plus installation.

No - the cap will not fix the "dimming lights" syndrome. Caps only tax the charging system further - as has been mentioned. Make sure the existing Alt & Batt are OK. Make sure the system is wired with the correct gauge cabling. Make sure the ground is solid. Do "The Big Three". Get a better battery & alternator. That's the correct sequence to follow.

jmelton86 
Gold - Posts: 1,228
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Joined: February 07, 2007
Location: South Carolina, United States
Posted: April 05, 2007 at 7:30 PM / IP Logged  

So I sent the guy that wonderful link aznboi3644 put up. He replies with;

"While the article that you site holds tru, there are a few errors that time has altered. This article was written some time ago and changes in the manufacturing of capacitors. In the article an ESR of .017 was given, the problem is that caps made today have an ESR of .0016 or less which is a far cry from days of old.

What does this mean? It means the calculations and information now change quite substantially and can no longer be held as true.

Re-read the article and re-do the calculation with the new information and you wil see that the benifits of a cap can no longer be marked as useless."

Is this legitimate?

2013 Kia Rio -90a alternator
DDX470HD GTO14001 GTO1014D (x3)
Big3 in 1/0G
1/0G to GTO14001
tdsteele 
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Joined: February 22, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: April 05, 2007 at 8:05 PM / IP Logged  
My only comment on this is, of all the local shops I have ever ventured into, and of all the systems they have done for customers or for themselves, I never hear or see of an alt upgrade, its always multiple batteries and/or caps. And I never understand it because lets face it, the owners and installers always have some multiple thousand watt system that they sink thousands and thousands of dollars into, why don't they spend several hundred more on a high output alt if that is what is needed? Are all of them just stupid to this? This is why I get so confused on the issue. One other thought with todays vehicles that I'm curious about, if you wanted to change the alt to a bigger one, how much of a headache is the person getting into? Bigger alt = bigger case which in some motors I've seen, how do you ever get it to fit?!? Do you have to make major changes just to make it fit?
jmelton86 
Gold - Posts: 1,228
Gold spacespace
Joined: February 07, 2007
Location: South Carolina, United States
Posted: April 05, 2007 at 8:21 PM / IP Logged  
The shop themselves don't see profit from HO alts, they only see profits from the caps, batteries and wiring. Is this possibly why?
2013 Kia Rio -90a alternator
DDX470HD GTO14001 GTO1014D (x3)
Big3 in 1/0G
1/0G to GTO14001
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