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fuel cut relay


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lagvoid 
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Posted: May 08, 2007 at 6:27 AM / IP Logged  
I've been looking at relay diagrams to try to understand them better, but I'm still confused. Do these two relays serve the same purpose (of cutting fuel when the alarm is armed)? I want to have the option to key start my car/remote start my car.
Relay 1
Pin 85- orange wire from dei alarm (ground while armed)
Pin 86- BLACK/ red ignition at key switch
Pins 87 and 87a- either side of the BLACK / YELLOW fuel pump, cut and tie to the relay
Relay 2
pin 86- 12v
pin 85- ground while armed.
87a gets the key side of this fuel pump wire
pin 30 gets the other side of this cut wire.
Does one have an advantage over the other or are they completely different all together?
Thank you
lagvoid 
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Posted: May 08, 2007 at 8:18 AM / IP Logged  
Hmmm I've been searching and I read that, "87 and 87a are never connected to each other". So to create a fuel cut relay, I would just use a Normally Closed Starter Kill Relay for the fuel pump wire?
Diag 1
https://www.the12volt.com/relays/page2.asp
enice 
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Posted: May 08, 2007 at 9:44 AM / IP Logged  
30 and 87a are connected when  86 and 85 are not energized.  when 86 and 85 are energized then 30 connects to 87.  Relay 1 is wrong .  When I mean energized it would mean that either 86 has  positive and 85 has negative or 86 has negative and 85 has positive.  Thats they only way they energize
lagvoid 
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Posted: May 08, 2007 at 9:53 AM / IP Logged  
Thank you for clearing that up and making it very easy to understand haha.
KarTuneMan 
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Posted: May 08, 2007 at 12:02 PM / IP Logged  
Yes ...relay 1 will only 'trigger" when the key is on. You need constant 12 volts to the relay to work when you arm.
KPierson 
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Posted: May 08, 2007 at 3:48 PM / IP Logged  

I would recomend against method 2, as the relay will be energized whenever the car is off and the alarm is armed.  This will put a ~200mA load on you battery at all time, roughly 4x the 'normal' acceptable load on a cars electrical system when not running.

The 'relay 1' method won't work either how you have it, as you can't use pins 87 and 87A like that.  You need to use 87A and 30.

The first method doesn't actually cut fuel until the ignition is turned on (the first thing you do when hotwiring a car.  At that point, the fuel pump will be disabled, making it 'impossible' to steal the car.  The downside to this is that IF they try to hotwire the car they will most likely be able to hear the relay clicking on and off with the ignition, which makes it very easy to bypass it.

You could always go with solid state relays - no clicks and VERY low load.

Kevin Pierson
enice 
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Posted: May 08, 2007 at 5:14 PM / IP Logged  
I would assume using it is ok because its the same as using a starter kill.....wouldnt see any difference other then using the fuel pump and not the starter..
KarTuneMan 
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Posted: May 09, 2007 at 12:22 AM / IP Logged  
KPierson wrote:

I would recomend against method 2, as the relay will be energized whenever the car is off and the alarm is armed.  This will put a ~200mA load on you battery at all time, roughly 4x the 'normal' acceptable load on a cars electrical system when not running.

So a standard "starter kill" is not ideal for a cars electrical system as well? Is it not the same theory? You "open" the starter wire when you arm the car, you open the fuel pump control when you arm the alarm.... it's the same thing.... isn't it?

lagvoid 
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Posted: May 09, 2007 at 5:20 AM / IP Logged  
KPierson,
Thanks for pointing that out. I will go ahead and wire the relay to the ignition for now and replace it with a solid state during my next order.
Wondering what your answer to KarTuneMan's question is as well
KPierson 
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Posted: May 09, 2007 at 6:08 AM / IP Logged  

KarTuneMan,

I've never seen a 'standard' starter kill that uses 12vdc on one side of the relay.

How much current does a standard Bosch relay pull?  I've seen them routinely read >225mA.

How long will the reserve capacity of an OEM battery support a 225mA load?  Lets say there is a 120min reserve at 25A (Optima specs).  Also, remember this load is in addition of anything else that the car is already drawing at rest.  I have fixed cars that would have the battery die if left sit for 4-5 days.  I personally would rather have someone steal the car then worry about jumping it every time I leave it sit!

Most of my alarm installs have been DEI.  The starter kill relay has an orange wire and a yellow wire.  The orange wire is (-) when armed and the yellow wire is ignition (This is what I consider 'normal' for a starter kill application).  I did some Audiovox alarms and I always hooked the starter kill relay up the same way.  If you know a way to prevent the battery from dying if left sit for a few days please share. 

Kevin Pierson
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