shallow vs standard speakers

Home / the12volt's Install Bay / Car Audio / shallow vs standard speakers (

Topic Closed)

Welcome Guest :)

Members

Next Page > < Prev Topic Next Topic >

bellsracer

Silver - Posts: 703

Joined: January 14, 2006

Location: United States

Posted: May 10, 2007 at 7:46 PM / IP Logged

hehe... so for once I can't find the answer, but this girl's gotta know

Anyone know what the advantages (besides mounting depth) and disadvantages of slim speakers versus standard depth speakers? I would like real facts, not assumptions please.

I am particularly interested in how sound quality is affected.

Thank you very much!

Lots of love to everyone!

Keiika

Never send your ducks to eagle school.

The difference between ordinary and extraordinary is that little extra.

The 3Ls of life: Learn from the Past, Live for the Present, Look to the Future.

deonjones

Member - Posts: 9

Joined: April 30, 2007

Location: Australia

Posted: May 10, 2007 at 8:03 PM / IP Logged

well if u take 2 12inch subs ones slim line and one is standard, the slim line 'should' be at most times have a more punch base like a 10 than a standard 12inch. due to the greater depth of the speaker face.

Automotive Electrical Accessory Fitter

______________________________

1x TA3404

1x TA81001

1x T9515-44

1x TS-C160R

1x TS-D691S

1x AVHP-5950DVD

bellsracer

Silver - Posts: 703

Joined: January 14, 2006

Location: United States

Posted: May 10, 2007 at 8:36 PM / IP Logged

ok... This sounds like an assumption, but I guess it makes some sense. But wouldn't the air displacement be the same?

I was referring to how sound would be affected in full range speakers in particular, not subs.

See, I am in the middle of a personal project (microbike, not pocket bike; details further below) and for sound, I want to use shallow mount speakers. I found a company that has "standard" and shallow mounts and they claim that the frequency response is the same (65Hz - 20KHz) but I do not know how the sound will flow from them. I was hoping somebody with experience in shallow mounts could tell me what they found out.

Please and thank you!

Never send your ducks to eagle school.

The difference between ordinary and extraordinary is that little extra.

The 3Ls of life: Learn from the Past, Live for the Present, Look to the Future.

speakermakers

Copper - Posts: 231

Joined: January 02, 2003

Location: United States

Posted: May 11, 2007 at 12:39 AM / IP Logged

The differences in performance will not be reflected in the specs that the manufacturer supplies. Typically a manufacturer will supply only “small” parameters that are based on tests conducted at 1 volt of input. The problem with these type of tests is that they are conducted at low power, and there fore do not reflect the possible shortcomings of a shallow motor structure and suspension at even moderate power levels. The result is that the T/S parameters that the manufacturer supplies you with might have a decent fs, qts, and even a good bl factor but all to often the suspension and magnetic flux are not linier (the cone has more or less control while traveling in one direction). This results in poor power handling and various distortion modes that color the sound of the mid range. In cases where the actual cone shape has been flattened there is usually problems with the cone flexing at higher volumes due to the structural compromise. When a manufacturer decides to make a low profile speaker they also decide to either compromise on performance or increase the price by a substantial amount. Usually you end up with both. It costs the manufacturer a lot to retool for a speaker like that with a limited customer base. Also many speakers of this type of design use neodymium magnets due to their small size and high magnetic strength. These magnets cost several times more than conventional magnets and also require even more retooling.

That might all sound very pessimistic, but it is all valid and worth consideration. Having said that, I must point out that a shallow design is achievable and a reasonable design goal. They do exist, though my experience with Focal and Hertz has been very poor. These are two very respected companies and they both fell short of an acceptable product in my opinion. Your only real option is to go do some listening tests. Unfortunately car audio sound rooms are a poor place to make comparisons for many resons.

Wish I had a speaker that I could recommend, but I don’t. Although I am sure that there is something out there that will fit your need. Good luck!

KarTuneMan

Platinum - Posts: 7,056

This member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.

This member consistently provides reliable information

Joined: December 14, 2004

Location: Isle Of Man

Posted: May 11, 2007 at 5:39 PM / IP Logged

At the very best, they are mearly a solution to a problem. (lack of space) (not an assumption)

haemphyst

Platinum - Posts: 5,054

This member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.

This member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.

Joined: January 19, 2003

Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island

Posted: May 11, 2007 at 10:31 PM / IP Logged

...and don't forget fleas! mosquitos and fleas...

No, wait, fleas employ the flea collar industry... ok, JUST mosquitos!!!!

It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

KarTuneMan

Platinum - Posts: 7,056

Joined: December 14, 2004

Location: Isle Of Man

Posted: May 12, 2007 at 9:42 AM / IP Logged

here's another...... people are funny, they want the front of the bus, the middle of the road....and the back of the church!

I could go on forever....... but I will spare ya'all.

abergdc

Member - Posts: 3

Joined: January 12, 2007

Posted: May 14, 2007 at 12:31 PM / IP Logged

speakermakers wrote:

Having said that, I must point out that a shallow design is achievable and a reasonable design goal. They do exist, though my experience with Focal and Hertz has been very poor. These are two very respected companies and they both fell short of an acceptable product in my opinion.

Bummer, I was about to get the Focal 165v3E for my 2006 Jetta GLI (stock locations), because my installer says that the 4" midrange of the JL Xr-653CS I had chosen didn't fit. The 165v3e has a "slim" 100 mm mid-range. Is that the one you had in mind as having been very poor?

Thanks,

Andy

zhalverson

Copper - Posts: 180

Joined: January 21, 2005

Location: United States

Posted: May 15, 2007 at 1:41 AM / IP Logged

The focal's midrange is 4" too so I think it is a moot point.

Steven Kephart

Platinum - Posts: 1,737

Joined: November 06, 2003

Location: Oregon, United States

Posted: May 15, 2007 at 2:54 AM / IP Logged

Differences will greatly depend on the design. There are definitely some compromises forced upon you with going with a shallow mount design, but they can be overcome with some clever engineering. The biggest compromise would probably be excursion capabilities.

bellsracer wrote:

ok... This sounds like an assumption, but I guess it makes some sense. But wouldn't the air displacement be the same?

That depends on the cone size (Sd) and excursion capabilities.

bellsracer wrote:

I rarely pay attention to frequency response claims like that, especially without more information acompanying it. How smooth is that rated response; +/-3dB? At what level was that response measured at? How much smoothing was applied to that response measurement? I have seen quite a few cheap and expensive speaker systems with rated responses down to 40-65 Hz and when installed be lucky to play an octave higher at a reasonable level. Again it will depend on the design of the speakers. Your best bet is to do what Speakermakers suggested and go out and listen. Nothing will tell you what sounds best to you better than your ears.

bellsracer wrote:

There are a lot of shallow mount coaxial speakers out there. Some that we sell are Eclipse, Memphis, and Planet Audio.

speakermakers wrote:

Why wouldn't they? If the design lacks available magnetic flux in the gap then that will be seen in the Qes (as an example). T/s parameters are derived from the physical parameters of the speaker design so they will be affected by any of the compromises. The trick is to make the best compromises possible. shallow vs standard speakers -- posted image.

speakermakers wrote:

The result is that the T/S parameters that the manufacturer supplies you with might have a decent fs, qts, and even a good bl factor but all to often the suspension and magnetic flux are not linier (the cone has more or less control while traveling in one direction).

Why would the BL curve or KMS curve be any less linear than on a non-shallow speaker? That has to do more with the type of spider and surround chosen, and stiffness of each for the suspension, as well as coil height/thickness and gap height for the motor. Now I can see limited coil height effecting this a little. But again there are ways to have just as linear BL (and more linear) in a shallow design as in a standard design.

Search for other posts by Steven Kephart

Next Page >

Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Search the12volt.com

Follow the12volt.com

Disclaimer: *All information on this site ( the12volt.com ) is provided "as is" without any warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including but not limited to fitness for a particular use. Any user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and use of this information. Please verify all wire colors and diagrams before applying any information.