the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
icon

is bi wiring a 2 way front with a 4 ch amp


Post ReplyPost New Topic
< Prev Topic Next Topic >
ninogui 
Member - Posts: 7
Member spacespace
Joined: May 26, 2008
Location: Portugal
Posted: May 26, 2008 at 8:02 AM / IP Logged  

Hi there,

I´m looking for your comments and advice on this.

I have a boston gt-42 (4x75w 4ohm or +- 220w 2 chan. bridged 4ohm i think?) and ready to fit the 2 way compo hertz mlk-165. They would go to the passive crossover (bi-wire capable) supplied in the kit.

Which would be the preferable scenario (objective SQ):

[B]1[/B] - bi-wire all channels to each mid and tweeter outputs from crossovers, as per

is bi wiring a 2 way front with a 4 ch amp -- posted image.

in which i would probably still have 75w per channel, or;

[B]2[/B] - bridge the amp at its outs, so just 1 pair of wires gos into the crossovers, but with higher power

Also in bi-wiring, and because the scheme puts the attenuation at 0db stating to control from amp, isnt this like going half-active or something? alpine 9887R has its own low/band/high active crossovers.

So which scenario i would get a better SQ, with bi-wiring/lower power, or regular single wiring but higher watts?

greets

Car: Honda civic eg9/94 vti HU:Alpine 9887R, Amp:Boston GT-42, front:Hertz MLK-165 active with ML-165 in door & ml-28 tweeter in sail panel, Amp:Alpine MRP-M500 mono to Focal 27LUX 10.8" port sub
DYohn 
Moderator - Posts: 10,741
Moderator spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: May 26, 2008 at 9:41 AM / IP Logged  
The scenario above is not bi-wiring it is actually bi-amping and yes, you are likely to get better SQ using that configuration.
Support the12volt.com
ninogui 
Member - Posts: 7
Member spacespace
Joined: May 26, 2008
Location: Portugal
Posted: May 26, 2008 at 9:48 AM / IP Logged  

ok,

thks man.. you´re right, bi-amping.. sorry for the nooby questions.

maybe you care to comment on

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4671437&posted=1#post4671437

and

http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?p=3063161&posted=1#post3063161

because i am having mixed answers for the very same issue...

Car: Honda civic eg9/94 vti HU:Alpine 9887R, Amp:Boston GT-42, front:Hertz MLK-165 active with ML-165 in door & ml-28 tweeter in sail panel, Amp:Alpine MRP-M500 mono to Focal 27LUX 10.8" port sub
DYohn 
Moderator - Posts: 10,741
Moderator spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: May 26, 2008 at 9:58 AM / IP Logged  

The folks who think more power is the answer to every question are usually simply wrong.  Your system may get louder by bridging the amp (by +3 to +6db, probably) but it will have LOWER SQ than simply wiring normally to one channel as a bridged amplifier almost always operates with higher distortion than one channel alone.  And bi-amping will give you the best overall sound since the amplifiers will work a lot less to produce the same SPL levels, especially the amp connected to the tweeter.  If you want the best SQ, go for the bi-amp setup.

Support the12volt.com
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: May 26, 2008 at 1:41 PM / IP Logged  
IMO, nawty and Harry Bo have no idea what they are talking about. MANY reasons for this, suffice to say I disagree with nearly everything they both mention. It is OBVIOUS to me that they have no concept of the very NON-EXISTANT line between "home" and "car" audio. All theories can be equally applied in either environ. Also, nearly EVERY high-end power amplifier in the home is bridgeable.
The diagram you are showing is bi-amped. Benefits include: precision level matching, optional TD capacity for perfect imaging, improved transient response (except you are maintaining the passive x-over, which somewhat negates this benefit), improved damping factor, improved headroom. Those are the biggest benefits to a bi-amped system. Detriments include: Cost, complexity, the ability to REALLY screw something up (BAD, EASY AND FAST!)...
Additionally, to bridge the amp will increase IMD and THD... Now, is that SQ?
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
ninogui 
Member - Posts: 7
Member spacespace
Joined: May 26, 2008
Location: Portugal
Posted: May 26, 2008 at 4:00 PM / IP Logged  

i get that..!

not to do lobbying, but your forum here and the posts in it are the most unbiased and understandable i found so far.

well, because i will have the cars guts taken out, i might try going active on the wires, and give my ears a bit of judgement.!
Probably i would have to be extra careful at setting the 9887R head unit active mode and crossover points at anything near according to the manufacturer (as you say can blow easy and fast). According to Hertz, if i use the large chamber option mounting on the tweeter (i intend to).

I could bi-amp and run active mode from the head unit.. high rca´s to tweerter, mid rca´s to mid range/mid woofer drivers and low to sub, which has it´s own amp (alpine mrp-m500) so this one would be neglegible, and each one with a cut off freq. accordingly.

the tweeter high pass advised is anywhere from 1800Hz to 5000Hz, and the resp.frequency is lowered from 1300Hz to 950Hz (i´d prefer the smoothness with lower Queue)

in the specs the mid driver hertz ml 165 has a response freq. from 35Hz to 25kHz, i could low pass it to 80Hz so to get the rest to the subwoofer.
i might really try to go active.! it´s just a shame to let go a brand new pair of hertz crossovers lolol but if the alpine can handle it, why use them anyway.?

what do you think of that?

greets

Car: Honda civic eg9/94 vti HU:Alpine 9887R, Amp:Boston GT-42, front:Hertz MLK-165 active with ML-165 in door & ml-28 tweeter in sail panel, Amp:Alpine MRP-M500 mono to Focal 27LUX 10.8" port sub
ninogui 
Member - Posts: 7
Member spacespace
Joined: May 26, 2008
Location: Portugal
Posted: May 26, 2008 at 4:42 PM / IP Logged  

i also found this

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

which seemed quite good and consistent learning reading.

thks

Car: Honda civic eg9/94 vti HU:Alpine 9887R, Amp:Boston GT-42, front:Hertz MLK-165 active with ML-165 in door & ml-28 tweeter in sail panel, Amp:Alpine MRP-M500 mono to Focal 27LUX 10.8" port sub
ninogui 
Member - Posts: 7
Member spacespace
Joined: May 26, 2008
Location: Portugal
Posted: May 26, 2008 at 4:49 PM / IP Logged  

haemphyst wrote:
IMO, nawty and Harry Bo have no idea what they are talking about. MANY reasons for this, suffice to say I disagree with nearly everything they both mention. It is OBVIOUS to me that they have no concept of the very NON-EXISTANT line between "home" and "car" audio. All theories can be equally applied in either environ. Also, nearly EVERY high-end power amplifier in the home is bridgeable.
The diagram you are showing is bi-amped. Benefits include: precision level matching, optional TD capacity for perfect imaging, improved transient response (except you are maintaining the passive x-over, which somewhat negates this benefit), improved damping factor, improved headroom. Those are the biggest benefits to a bi-amped system. Detriments include: Cost, complexity, the ability to REALLY screw something up (BAD, EASY AND FAST!)...
Additionally, to bridge the amp will increase IMD and THD... Now, is that SQ?

totally right!

also someone answered

"You can also get yourself a smaller good quality two channel 75 watt and eliminate the passive. This will give you the best of both worlds letting you run active from the 9887 and have more power from not having the passives in the way. Not much money to invest for a lot of gain. "

How can someone say this?? most of my SQ sound relies or will rely on the quality specs of both the alpine 9887R and the boston GT-42 amp!!

so again bing.. agree with you lolol

Car: Honda civic eg9/94 vti HU:Alpine 9887R, Amp:Boston GT-42, front:Hertz MLK-165 active with ML-165 in door & ml-28 tweeter in sail panel, Amp:Alpine MRP-M500 mono to Focal 27LUX 10.8" port sub
ninogui 
Member - Posts: 7
Member spacespace
Joined: May 26, 2008
Location: Portugal
Posted: May 27, 2008 at 9:06 AM / IP Logged  

sorry for one more question guys,

adding to that, on an active setup should the control be given full to the alpine head unit, thus disconecting all the filters from the external amp, or is it that a full active setup has no external amp/amp crossovers, coming all just from the head unit.?

greets

Car: Honda civic eg9/94 vti HU:Alpine 9887R, Amp:Boston GT-42, front:Hertz MLK-165 active with ML-165 in door & ml-28 tweeter in sail panel, Amp:Alpine MRP-M500 mono to Focal 27LUX 10.8" port sub
ninogui 
Member - Posts: 7
Member spacespace
Joined: May 26, 2008
Location: Portugal
Posted: May 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM / IP Logged  

Hello people,

Just to post a little feedback here,
Finally i got the kit runing active from alpine 9887R to Boston amp and then to front stage ML-165 woofer/mid on the doors, lower area and to the ml-28 tweeters located at the sail panel (thats how the inside of the rear view mirror is called, isnt it?). MLCX20 crossovers are untouched and left in the box lolol
I am using the short tweeter dome mainly because the angled mounting does not allow for the long one to be used, as soon as i have a mod done for it i will rather use this one, for softer and lower queue high frequency.
Still to be done is the dynamat extreme on door panels as well as the plain & chant behind the woofer itself.
Also have to re-imprint the alpine hu.
Dont want to run a deja vu post here, but all i can say is... wow! what a clear sound! if this is the mlk-165 (the baby mille) i wonder how can the mlk-2 be better than this?
my present crossover settings, still playing with them:
- low (to sub) - 80Hz on 12th octave, set at 0
- mid-low (to woofer) - 63Hz on 18th octave, set at 0
- mid-high (to woofer) - 2500Hz on 18th octave, set at 0
- high (to tweeter) - 2500 on 24th octave, set at 0
Channels 1 & 2 on Boston go to tweeters, channels 3 & 4 go to woofers. No need to bridge or anything, gains are just a tidy bit above mid level, no need to go over that, as the sound on level 24 is practically the highest my ears can take on sound level without damage lolol
Still using the high pass on the boston chan. 1 & 2 a few notches, so just to prevent any foolishness from experimenting on the tweeters. But next step would be filter off at the Boston amp level i guess.
So now i am entering speakers softening phase for 3 to 4 weeks, but it can only get better overtime.
All an all i am very happy so far, total investment is at about 1.2k euro.
Comments and ideas are all welcome of course.!
Greets

Car: Honda civic eg9/94 vti HU:Alpine 9887R, Amp:Boston GT-42, front:Hertz MLK-165 active with ML-165 in door & ml-28 tweeter in sail panel, Amp:Alpine MRP-M500 mono to Focal 27LUX 10.8" port sub
Page of 2

  Printable version Printable version Post ReplyPost New Topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

  •  
Search the12volt.com
Follow the12volt.com Follow the12volt.com on Facebook
Wednesday, May 1, 2024 • Copyright © 1999-2024 the12volt.com, All Rights Reserved Privacy Policy & Use of Cookies
Disclaimer: *All information on this site ( the12volt.com ) is provided "as is" without any warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including but not limited to fitness for a particular use. Any user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and use of this information. Please verify all wire colors and diagrams before applying any information.

Secured by Sectigo
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
Support the12volt.com
Top
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer