How much juice?

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bandsaw

Member - Posts: 20

Joined: February 01, 2005

Location: Canada

Posted: February 07, 2005 at 4:21 PM / IP Logged

I'm hoping some of the veterans on this site can help me out. I'm attempting to supplement the bass in my '03 Grand Prix GTP by adding a 12" sub in the trunk. My question is: how much wattage (RMS) do I need? 150? 200? More? The car came equipped with an eight speaker Bose. Yah, I know what some of you think of that system.

I'm mid forties so I'm not concerned with rattling the car beside me. I do want enough so that the bass is obvious to my ears inside the vehicle. With the pass through closed.

I realize some of this is subjective. It seems, however, that I get a different answer from every salesman I talk to.

I plan on using a sealed enclosure with something comparable to an Alpine R series. I hope to keep it to a single so that I don't loose anymore room than I have to.

How usefull is the remote bass control?

Thanks for any help.

jstruckman

Copper - Posts: 465

Joined: May 03, 2004

Posted: February 07, 2005 at 5:01 PM / IP Logged

Well you are probably getting a different answer everytime because it is a wide open question with a hundred different answers. If you want noticable bass but not to pound, i would first off suggest a lesser speaker than a type R unless you find a good deal on one, you will not be running the speaker to its full potential with only 200 or so watts.But on the other hand, if you end up wanting more bass, you will have the subwoofer to achieve that(more is always better). 200 watts RMS would be decent to get some low end. As long as you get a quality amp and sub with about 200-300 watts RMS, i think you be please, guessing that you put it in a quality enclosure with a quality install. There are so many possibilities that there is no one correct answer.

Jazzy

kfr01

Gold - Posts: 2,121

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Joined: April 30, 2003

Posted: February 07, 2005 at 5:40 PM / IP Logged

Like jstruckman alluded to, the amount of power HIGHLY depends on the driver and application of that driver you pick.

Efficient subs will, obviously, need less power to reach adequate volume levels. Inefficient subs, equally obviously, may need much more.

A sealed enclosure is probably the correct application for you as I assume you value sound quality over SPL. A single subwoofer is more than adequate for someone interested in simply adding some bass at moderate volume levels. I run a single 10" sub w/ 200w and feel that it provides more than enough of a bottom end for my listening needs. If you're really curious, I'd download a program such as WinISD pro and model up what a driver's resulting frequency response curve will (roughly) look like at a given power level and box size.

New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

heavilymedicate

Silver - Posts: 328

Joined: August 05, 2004

Location: Texas, United States

Posted: February 07, 2005 at 6:19 PM / IP Logged

Remote bass control = very useful in your situation. It would be a high priority for me, if i where compiling your system.

Since the subwoofer will be in your trunk, I would recommend a 10" subwoofer of good quality. JL Audio w3v2, Alpine Type R, Infinity Kappa Perfect/VQ, MTX 7500, others...

These subs sit in the 200-400w RMS power range. IMO, really anywhere in that range will enable you to juice good spl/sq out of one of those subs. It is my experience that once you achieve about 75% of the rated rms power of a subwoofer, you are getting a good mix of output vs. reliability. As you cross the rated rms power you reach a point where reliability is sacrificed and output marginally increased. However, I would feel comfortable recommending that most subs be powered up to their rated RMS.

The amount of power you need; will be governed by the efficiency, enclosure type and what you expect out of your system. It's that simple.

Your amp will make a difference, as will your subwoofer. Some subs cannot really handle there rated RMS input, and some amplifiers will not put out their rated RMS output under reasonable conditions. Choose a CEA2006 compliant amp to start. Stick with quality names.

When you have decided what you think you want, give us an idea and you will get more solid feedback.

What will you get for Christmas, bad boy? Coal........or Visonik?? - stevdart

Wow, is everyone clueless and lost in the dark? - uthinkuknoaudio

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bandsaw

Member - Posts: 20

Joined: February 01, 2005

Location: Canada

Posted: February 07, 2005 at 6:44 PM / IP Logged

Thanks for the replies, guys. You're definately helping already. I've got one place suggesting a smaller Memphis (2x75), Class AB with a lower end sub. Another is pushing a Planet Audio VX400D (200 at 4ohms, 350 at 2 ohms, 600 peak) Class D with the Type R Alpine. Seems a bit like two much different ideas. Especially seeing the guy suggesting the smaller amp is about 22 and the one promoting the larger one is 45(?).

How noticable is using speaker level feeds as opposed to using RCA's? As some of you know, the Bose systems are not readily spliced into and I'd rather spend the $100 on more amp or speaker than on an adapter if the sound isn't appreciably better. Coming through the seat and back deck and not wide open to the passenger compartment.

Drewt

Copper - Posts: 183

Joined: January 04, 2005

Location: United States

Posted: February 07, 2005 at 7:04 PM / IP Logged

I'd go with an Infinity Kappa Perfect 12 DVC, and then get an alpine MRD-M301 amplifier. That should give you plenty of power, and awsome sound quality. You can also get a remote bass control for that amp, so that's a plus!

-Drew

customsuburb

Gold - Posts: 1,813

Joined: January 17, 2004

Location: United States

Posted: February 07, 2005 at 7:20 PM / IP Logged

Three subs that have pretty good SQ are the Infinity Kappa, Alpine Type R, and the JL Audio W3v2. Any of these 10's will give you the sound you are looking for. Just add an amp that outputs power close to the the sub's continuous power rating.

I think Alpine's MRD-M301 amps are on clearence so you should be able to find one for a pretty good price if there are any around your area. Any amp will work really, as long as it is from a quality brand (MTX, JL, Alpine, Eclipse, etc...)

audiobass10

Silver - Posts: 328

Joined: October 11, 2004

Location: United States

Posted: February 07, 2005 at 8:19 PM / IP Logged

Seriously i can't believe no1 has suggested the Shiva..that would be perfect for sq and moderate amounts of bass..give it 200-300rms and call it a day

Dave

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bandsaw

Member - Posts: 20

Joined: February 01, 2005

Location: Canada

Posted: February 07, 2005 at 8:37 PM / IP Logged

I'm sure I've read in these forums that the higher the number in the signal to noise ratio, the cleaner the sound. If that is the case, why would I want to look at a Alpine MRD-M301with a ratio of +/- 60 db when the PA amp is rated at 100? Even on clearance pricing, it is running at about 2/3 the cost of the PA. Or, is the Planet Audio amp not as good as I was led to believe?

heavilymedicate

Silver - Posts: 328

Joined: August 05, 2004

Location: Texas, United States

Posted: February 07, 2005 at 9:26 PM / IP Logged

Because there is no universal rule governing how s/n ratio is calculated. For instance if Alpine used the same standard as PA, it may score a 125db s/n ratio or it may score worse. It is not uncommon to find a BOSS amplifier that boasts a near 100db s/n ratio; however, we know that’s bullsh*t.

Maybe your confused as to what s/n ratio is. Signal to noise ratio is the output at a given frequency or range of, where noise is 1db and output is xxdb. In the case of the Alpine 1db of noise to 60db of output. Noise is usually not a problem for subwoofers, most noise occurs well above the crossover point of subwoofers.

The Alpine is a Class D mono subwoofer amp and you would not expect to find a great s/n ratio. The P/A boasting of a 100 s/n ratio is suspect in my book, that line of Alpine amps are solid and I think 60db is more realistic then 100 on the PA.

The spec you where probably thinking of is thd, total harmonic distortion. THD should be given a value like "200w rms @ 0.5%thd with 12.5volt all channels driven from 20-500hz" (for a subwoofer amp) This is important because if the values are replaced, just one at a time like: 15.0%thd well that would be unusable power, to much thd; or 15.5volts input, you got a car automotive system that holds 15.5volts? so you'll never hit the rated wattage, your call probably only does 12.9v of solid voltage.

All the numbers are important, look for numbers that are whacked out or unrealistic.

What will you get for Christmas, bad boy? Coal........or Visonik?? - stevdart

Wow, is everyone clueless and lost in the dark? - uthinkuknoaudio

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