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high quality deep bass


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sqsq 
Copper - Posts: 51
Copper spacespace
Joined: May 15, 2007
Location: United States
Posted: May 15, 2007 at 1:45 PM / IP Logged  

I have a Scion xB and try as i might, I cannot get the deep bass I was able to get in my Camry (I could get 20hz at good volume).  I realize this is due primarily to my not having a trunk, but I'm still hopeful there's something I can do.  Right now I have a Soundstream RFW-12 sub (600w rms).  It sounds very good, it plays very clean, but it won't reproduce bass at the depth I'm looking for.  I know it's not the subs fault bc I've tried numerous subs (audiobahn, mtx, kicker, infinity) with no luck.  I've also tried different sizes and setups ranging from one ten, to two tens, to one 12 and nothing really truly gives me what I'm looking for-although one twelve seems the closest.  Please note: I'm not JUST looking for deep bass I also want accurate bass so I'm really only looking for some sort of sealed enclosure.  Also, i want attentution of the higher frequencies (over 80hz).  That is to say, I know I could probably throw in a couple of twelves and get deep bass but I'd likely be subjected to an overwhelming amount of non-deep bass as well.  So, in short, I want some sort of setup that will give me clean, deep bass with a minimal amount of non-deep bass--any help would be grealy appreciated. 

1 last thing.  Most 12" subs recommend sealed enclosures with around one cubic foot of air space.  I know the kicker solobaric L5 can push up to 2 cubic feet.  Do you think going with a sub that can move more air might give me what I'm looking for?

tcss 
Silver - Posts: 1,623
Silver spacespace
Joined: June 07, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: May 15, 2007 at 2:55 PM / IP Logged  
20 HZ at good volume? No vented enclosure? Set your low pass at 65HZ?Move more air= 2 Cu. Ft. enclosure? Son you need to read the stickys at the top of the page.
There is no such thing as free installation!
aznboi3644 
Gold - Posts: 2,600
Gold spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: May 01, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: May 15, 2007 at 4:00 PM / IP Logged  
you're problem is your ENLCOSURE.
I downloaded a 5hz sine wave and we played it in my friends system...two 12 inch mojos in a custom ported box....sounded like a Helicopter was coming. Is that the kind of deep bass you want??
Minimal "non-deep bass"?
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: May 15, 2007 at 4:27 PM / IP Logged  
OK, first off, you'll put the solobaric COMPLETELY out of your mind if you want REALLY accurate bass. I too, am an accuracy freak, been that way for years, and have used up to 3kW on a single 12, all dedicated to below 55Hz, in my Civic.
Sealed enclosures WILL give the best apparent extension, with the smoothest sound, this, due to their shallow, 6dB roll-off, and typically (non-peaky) low ripple, however, that does not mean you can't achieve EXCEPTIONAL results with a vented or other type of enclosure. PR systems, and TL systems, while difficult to implement in the car CORRECTLY, will blow your mind. Having used both, I have since become a staunch defender of both.
Knowing what you are looking for, result-wise, is a big help. Thanks for filing us in completely with your desired result; many times, it's like pulling teeth to get any idea of a desired end point.
20Hz in a car, huh? Nice, but rarely practical. I am willing to bet that your enclosure only had around a 30Hz -3dB point, allowing for cabin gain, which in a Camry, can be pretty good. I have the TCSounds TC1000 10's, and they are a fantastic driver, for not much money, too...
1.2 cubic feet each (for the 10) with a 3X11 port, will give you an fb of 32Hz, which, in car, oughta get you to the 22 to 25Hz range with some pretty good authority. 2.4 cubes each, with a 4X20 port, will fb you at 24Hz, so 20Hz will be no issue whatsoever... With that enclosure, you'd probably even be able to run fairly effectively without a subsonic, as well... I STILL highly recommend them, but tuned that low, you'd rarely hit below it. I'd look for a low-pass of around 50Hz, I like a true subwoofer, too.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
sqsq 
Copper - Posts: 51
Copper spacespace
Joined: May 15, 2007
Location: United States
Posted: May 15, 2007 at 4:53 PM / IP Logged  
saying "non-deep bass" may be a oxymoron, but what i mean is that the bass frequency's around say 80-120hz get reproduced at a much louder volume (or at least that's how it sounds) than the frequency's below 80hz; even with the crossover set to 60hz.  I had 2 mtx 10's that I moved from my camry to my xB and instantly 40hz and below seemed to vanish; so I'm trying to find some way of altering or side-stepping the acoustics of the vehicle to give me what I'm looking for.
sqsq 
Copper - Posts: 51
Copper spacespace
Joined: May 15, 2007
Location: United States
Posted: May 15, 2007 at 5:06 PM / IP Logged  
HAEMPHYST--thanks for your response, that's definitely stuff I'll look into.  Let me ask you--do you think it's possible to get what I'm looking for from a single driver in a sealed enclosure (although 10's play cleaner, they don't seem to have the fullness and extension offered by a 12 and I'd like to stay away from a ported enclosure if possible)?  And let me state that I'm not looking for something to blow the doors off.  It's simply that, my favorite bass elements from certain depeche mode, sublime (as well as many other artists) songs have vanished or been lessened to such an extent that they're no longer exciting--and they've been replaced with overly-prounced woofer (not sub-woofer) notes.  Again, I've tried a 1000watt rms 12; two 800watt rms 10's, but no matter what I do the woofer notes seem to overstand the subwoofer notes and the really really low freq's are either not produced at a meaningful volume or sound kind of muddy and flat (not full and rich they ought to).
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: May 15, 2007 at 5:58 PM / IP Logged  
Another fallacy... that a 12 will go lower than a 10, or that a 10 will be "faster" than a 12. I had an Eclipse Ti 10 in a sealed enclosure (recommended volume, of course) and I thought I'd "upgrade" to the Ti 12... The 10 actually went NOTICEABLY deeper, while the 12 played noticeably faster... I know, weird, right?
A properly tuned vented enclosure WILL sound as good as (and in some cases better than) a sealed enclosure, depending on placement, tuning, power... etc. I know what you're thinking... "Vented boxes sound sloppy". If improperly tuned, you're right, they can sound like bug furry turds. I have heard vented boxes blow the doors off of sealed boxes in regards to transparency AND speed.
I understand the not wanting to blow the doors off, but I'd SERIOUSLY consider a TCSounds TC1000 12" in a large vented enclosure. 3 cubes, tuned to 20Hz with a 4 X 20 inch vent. Careful construction, a low, steep crossover, and I guarantee you'll like it. And it won't cost you an arm and a leg. Give it an honest 300 to 600 watts, and you'll LOVE it. If you REALLY are dead set against the vented enclosure, use a 2 cubic foot sealed (net volume, AND WELL BRACED!!! this woofer'll demand it!) enclosure. Either way, you'll love it.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
zhalverson 
Copper - Posts: 180
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 21, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: May 15, 2007 at 11:08 PM / IP Logged  
Have you tried facing the subwoofer different ways?  Like up and back?  Maybe you just have some major cancelling issues.
sqsq 
Copper - Posts: 51
Copper spacespace
Joined: May 15, 2007
Location: United States
Posted: May 16, 2007 at 12:29 AM / IP Logged  
yeah, I even tried building a downward firing subwoofer enclosure.  The closest I got to what I'm looking was a audiobahn alum10n facing downwards--but it only worked if I shoved the box in the back corner and when I did so the bass sounded really poor/weak anywhere other than from the passenger seat
Steven Kephart 
Platinum - Posts: 1,737
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: November 06, 2003
Location: Oregon, United States
Posted: May 16, 2007 at 2:07 AM / IP Logged  

The enclosure is a big proponent of what kind of extention you will get on both ends as many have already mentioned.  But the sub will effect this as well.  If you want lower frequency extention, then excursion is a very good thing to have.  This is because for every halving of frequency the excursion must increase by a factor of 4 to keep the same output level. 

You also mentioned that upper bass frequencies were too loud.  This could of course be caused by a peak in the response.  However it may also be from harmonic distortion.  Keep in mind that this type of distortion shows up as peaks one, two and even three octaves above the fundamental frequency.  For instance if your sub has horrible second and third order distortion then peaks will occur on top of the natural harmonics for say an instrument with a 30 Hz fundamental at 60 and 90 Hz.  And this is something that can't be processed out without effecting the fundamental frequency directly. 

It sounds to me what you need is a high excursion, low distortion driver.  As a suggestion you may want to look at JL's W7.  It is rather spendy, but there are few other drivers on the market that can match it's performance.  Here's another possibility for you: http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/CSS_SDX15/  The down side to that sub is that so far it is only offered in a 15 (the 12's should come in the future) and it does require a large enclosure compared to the W7.

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