whats too much eq?

hi im new to car audio and doing my 3rd install. i dont claim to know hardly a thing but i take my time and do it right. id like some advice on eqs and whats over kill? my current system im working on has a pioneer 480mp with a built in eq, also have a eq-6500, and also the built in x-overs in my alpine amps these are old school dc direct amps. we also have some audio control stuff ones  1/3 octave the other a 30 band. speakers are 1252w infinity running at 2 ohms. audiobahn matched 6 1/2 and tweeter in the front. and 2 way 6x9 for rear fill. the front speakers do come with a cross over /cap setup. my general idea which is prob wrong lol. was to use the 1/3 octave audiocontrol for the subs. the eq-6500 for the front and rear speakers. and to run the head unit and amps flat. ive heard way to many diff ways to go on this. i go for sound balance not just ghetto boom. any and all advice would be great keep the hate mail though. thanxOWWWWWWWWWWW you said you discharged the cap!

ANY equalization that changes the frequency response from flat is too much equalization. An EQ should be a tool to fix anomalies in the response; to take the response to flat, not to augment, or change what is there to what the listener wants to hear, IMO. After THAT point is reached, then the listener can adjust with the tone controls in the source unit. (Yes, that is still EQ, but I think an outboard processor should be used for FIXING, not augmenting.) Smiley-face EQ curves are the norm today, especially in pop recordings, and the recording industry has destroyed the appreciation of music, by doing so. Give me a flat response ANY day.It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

hmmmmmmmmm now that you put it in a difft slant i do see what you mean. so in your words if i got this right i should run my head unit with out the eq and use my other hard ware to acheive my goals. in other words i get my signal raw really not changed much from the head unit and go from there?the head unit does have a setting where no preset eq types are used at all. and its not really and eq anyway its just preset settings. jazz.-rb etc. another ? is the head unit with most of the new stuff has the built in lp-hp option i was also told to lv these alone and use my amp x-over instead. my amps are old school v12 dc direct alpines. i think these forums are great and thanx for the help.OWWWWWWWWWWW you said you discharged the cap!

An equalizer is useful...IF you have access to an RTA

aznboi3644 wrote: An equalizer is useful...IF you have access to an RTA

You don't need to have an RTA to make use of an equalizer. Whatever you have to do to make your system sound good to you is what you need to do. You don't have to have a machine give you a flat response, just so you can go back in and adjust it some more to your liking.

For what it's worth, I can PROMISE you that you will not like an RTA-flat sound from your system. It will sound like ass...

greenbroncoguy wrote: I can PROMISE you that you will not like an RTA-flat sound from your system. It will sound like ass...

Wrong... I can promise you that my RTA-flat sound does NOT sound like ass. And I have witnesses that will vouch to that as well. Five members here on the12volt have heard my system, and all were VERY pleased with the presentation of it's RTA-flat response. (Those members, BTW, are tcss, jfinks, DYohn, dwarren, and hamzter) Flat is what the ear is SUPPOSED to hear. Is there EQ on everything around you? No. It's flat. Does everything around you sound like ass? I'd HATE to live where you live if you answer yes to that question. As I said earlier, today's recording industry WASTES anything resembling flat, (with the heavily overprocessed smiley-faced-EQ-curve that is so popular today) which is why your RTA-flat, and my RTA-flat sound different. (Yes, listener tastes have something to do with it as well...) The types of music you listen to, (i.e. the source) or have heard through flat systems, versus the types of music I listen to will make the system sound JUST like what the engineer wasted (in your case - apparently) or preserved (in my case - generally). I primarily listen to classic rock, adult contemporary, properly recorded folk, and classical, all recorded FAITHFULLY (or at least in a different technological age, especially in the case of the classic rock - ah, the joys of ANALOG recording, and all of the limitations it was saddled with!) where pre-processing and EQ isn't applied heavily, if at all. No, I think you are wrong with that statement... But that's just me.It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

no i have no RTA im as green as it gets to car audio, but i do know what an RTA is and how its used to tweak systems. im not an idiot im a noob at this. i have always tweaked my systems by ear and used classical music to help tweak systems is this wrong? to be honest i dont plan on taking this to a comp yet its no where near that lvl but when i do i would assume getting an RTA to tweak would be needed. but for the now i just want balance and not all boom. to be honest this is a entry lvl system in my eyes, but even an entry lvl system if done right can sound great. ive doen 2 other systems with no eqs just the built in x-overs in the amps. so that why i was aksing if i was over killing with my eqs? i plan to use the pioneer eq-6500 for my front and rear, then use the 1/3 octave audio control eq for the subs. then run the head unit a pioneer 480mp with no eq or use of the x-over settings. then i would use my x-overs on my alpine amps. they are all v12 dc direct old school amps. and then start to tweak and tweak and *sigh* tweak. am i missing anything guys? thanx for any input.OWWWWWWWWWWW you said you discharged the cap!

haemphyst wrote: greenbroncoguy wrote: I can PROMISE you that you will not like an RTA-flat sound from your system. It will sound like ass... Wrong... I can promise you that my RTA-flat sound does NOT sound like ass. And I have witnesses that will vouch to that as well. Five members here on the12volt have heard my system, and all were VERY pleased with the presentation of it's RTA-flat response. (Those members, BTW, are tcss, jfinks, DYohn, dwarren, and hamzter) Flat is what the ear is SUPPOSED to hear. Is there EQ on everything around you? No. It's flat. Does everything around you sound like ass? I'd HATE to live where you live if you answer yes to that question. As I said earlier, today's recording industry WASTES anything resembling flat, (with the heavily overprocessed smiley-faced-EQ-curve that is so popular today) which is why your RTA-flat, and my RTA-flat sound different. (Yes, listener tastes have something to do with it as well...) The types of music you listen to, (i.e. the source) or have heard through flat systems, versus the types of music I listen to will make the system sound JUST like what the engineer wasted (in your case - apparently) or preserved (in my case - generally). I primarily listen to classic rock, adult contemporary, properly recorded folk, and classical, all recorded FAITHFULLY (or at least in a different technological age, especially in the case of the classic rock - ah, the joys of ANALOG recording, and all of the limitations it was saddled with!) where pre-processing and EQ isn't applied heavily, if at all. No, I think you are wrong with that statement... But that's just me.

First of all, let me start out by saying that I'm not going to argue with someone of your stature who admittedly has much more knowledge and experience than I do to bring to the conversation. Perhaps I should have worded my response a little differently...

EVERYONE's ears perceive sound differently. To me, perfectly RTA flat sounds bad; perhaps I like clipped, over EQ'd, peaky music, but be that as it may, I HAVE heard RTA flat - and as I said, it sounds like ass. I listen to primarily hard rock, classic rock, some rap every now and then when the girlfriend is in the car, and blues as well.

A systems'  frequecy response that shows up flat on a screen will not be perceived as flat to the human ear, as humans' ears are more sensitive to some frequencies as opposed to others. So, even though your prefectly RTA'd-flat system response appears flat on a computer screen, does NOT mean that all the frequencies being reproduced will be heard at the same levels by your ears - because they won't be.

You stated that an RTA should be used to return the system to flat, not to augment the system to ones liking - IMHO that statement is so wrong I can't even believe it was even posted. If you are spending all this money on a stereo system, why would you not want it to sound good to you? Everyone has different tastes, everyone like different things.

IMHO, I would RTA the system to flat, and then use your EQ to make minor adjustments to make the system good to YOU. After all, you ARE the one paying for and listening to it, right?

That's all I'm saying...

Yeah... I use classical as well... It's generally recorded with decent values, and will provide you with the best source (music-wise) to tweak "by ear". Once you DO have an RTA, (and you do not have to spend a lot to get one...) you'll never use music to set anything, you'll want to use pink noise. If your speakers are of high enough quality, and you set the crossovers appropriately, treat the car, properly place the drivers, and adjust the gains correctly, you should be able to get a really good sounding system going. I did it for years JUST like that. Once you know what pink noise sounds like, it's pretty easy to come really close even without an RTA. I mentioned that you don't have to spend a lot to get into an RTA. It's true. Not including the laptop(s) I use to do the actual signal processing, I have a 50 dollar mic, ( the Behringer ECM8000) a 100 dollar piece of software ( TrueRTA, level 4, but MOST people can use level 2 or 3), and a 100 dollar mic input for the laptop ( an M-Audio MobilePre USB). The laptop can be something as small as a PIII 500MHz machine, with 256MB of RAM. Trust me... I know of the tweak, tweak, and tweak some more... Even with computing power to help, I spent about 5 hours fixing my response curve and setting my TD until it was JUST RIGHT! And that was in the summer... In Bakersfield... In the HEAT...! That EQ on the subs is going to be a tremendous waste of EQ capabilities. Below 80Hz you won't have any control at all... Maybe one or two bands will be effective in the sub's passband. You'll literally be throwing 29 bands of EQ away. I'd use that on your highs, where you might be throwing ONE band of EQ away... Use the crossovers in the amps, you'll be fine with those for now.It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

greenbroncoguy wrote: First of all, let me start out by saying that I'm not going to argue with someone of your stature who admittedly has much more knowledge and experience than I do to bring to the conversation. Perhaps I should have worded my response a little differently...

I appreciate the respect shown by that statement, but I'm not everything, and I don't know it all... I never said I was or did. No, please... argue. I am interested in your opinion, and that's part of what makes this the best forum going. We all respect each other's opinions here, and nobody is going to flame you for speaking up.

greenbroncoguy wrote: EVERYONE's ears perceive sound differently. To me, perfectly RTA flat sounds bad; perhaps I like clipped, over EQ'd, peaky music, but be that as it may, I HAVE heard RTA flat - and as I said, it sounds like ass. I listen to primarily hard rock, classic rock, some rap every now and then when the girlfriend is in the car, and blues as well.

I did concede that everybody's ear is different. What you hear is NOT what I hear. I will still maintain that a flat response sounds best to me. I was merely stating (perhaps abruptly) that a blanket statement like "it sounds bad" is NOT the same meaning as "it sounds bad to me". Modern hard rock and rap, especially, are the biggest offenders of the overprocessing. Take Nickelback's latest. I LOVE that album... Good driving music, awesome lyrics... Just good, plain rock and roll. It could be one of my favorites, a true "guilty pleasure" for me: but the recording is CRAP! Rockstar is SO clipped in places I can hardly listen to it sometimes. Perhaps building a system with the resolution I did put into mine is really a curse... TOO revealing, but I digress. My flat system sounds FANTASTIC with that particular album, and when I feel like I want to "crank it up" a bit more, (and those times DO happen...) I have subwoofer level on the deck! Signal processing? Yes. EQ? TECHNICALLY yes, but my hardware EQs are trunk mounted PC adjusted devices with no way to "tweak", once set... (Not without a PC anyway.) I'm really just adjusting the "tone control".

greenbroncoguy wrote: A systems' frequecy response that shows up flat on a screen will not be perceived as flat to the human ear, as humans' ears are more sensitive to some frequencies as opposed to others. So, even though your prefectly RTA'd-flat system response appears flat on a computer screen, does NOT mean that all the frequencies being reproduced will be heard at the same levels by your ears - because they won't be.

This is the fault, again, of the recording industry. If recorded faithfully, you should not be able to tell the difference between a live session or the recording. If you are seated in the venue during the recording session, you shouldn't know that you are listening to a recording later. This takes a FLAT curve. You have listened SO LONG to overprocessed music you think you are missing out, when you really aren't. A flat RTA should recreate the original performance... You will be missing nothing, and it WILL sound right, I promise you. I grew up going to the orchestra in Grand Rapids, Michigan, (one of the finest orchestras in the nation, at that time - I can't speak for them today - that was 30+ years ago) so I KNOW what full-blown orchestra sounds like, I understand the emotion portrayed. My car DOES sound right, I promise.

greenbroncoguy wrote: You stated that an RTA should be used to return the system to flat, not to augment the system to ones liking - IMHO that statement is so wrong I can't even believe it was even posted. If you are spending all this money on a stereo system, why would you not want it to sound good to you? Everyone has different tastes, everyone like different things.

Well, the RTA is the tool used to make sure the system IS flat, but I understand what you meant... No, seriously, an EQ should be used as a set-it-and-forget-it device. Fix the anomalies, and never touch it again. EQs can be VERY hard on a system, causing the user to very easily overdrive amplifier inputs, causing all SORTS of bad things to happen. Tone controls are (or really can be) just as bad, but since they are effective on a much wider band of the music, it can be more easily heard, thus alerting the user to "potential damage", before it happens. A very narrow band EQ, like the 31 band device the OP has, can easily hide the overdriven narrow band within the music, and damage can occur quite quickly.

greenbroncoguy wrote: IMHO, I would RTA the system to flat, and then use your EQ to make minor adjustments to make the system good to YOU. After all, you ARE the one paying for and listening to it, right?

I agree... But I also look at things from a deeper, far more technical angle, I think. (Read again, my last paragraph) I am a HUGE fan of "overpowering". ("Headroom is our friend." -- Haemphyst) I don't know if you have read my thread regarding the system presently in my car, but if you have, then you know I am running over 600 WRMS to each of my doors! A mis-adjusted EQ could and would cause VERY rapid, and irreversible damage to some VERY expensive and literally irreplaceable drivers in the hands of the "un-trained". Different points of view, as well as different listening habits, as well as different "personal response" will ALL come into very deep and critical play here.

greenbroncoguy wrote: That's all I'm saying...

And that's all we can ask.It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."