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crossover design for dipole rears


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stevdart 
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Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: November 05, 2004 at 9:08 AM / IP Logged  

My hurdle now is verifying the crossover cap and coil values with the ones haemphyst came up with using his program.  For instance, the value for the tweeter crossover at 3500 Hz:  C1 and L1.  Instead of using a 12 ohm impedance for the series-wired 6 ohm tweeters, the program seemed to have used about 17.5 ohms for the tweeter impedance.  What is the program looking at that I wouldn't know if I used a calculator or a chart?

The other cap and coil values listed don't match with the chart or calculator, either, but not off by as much.  Can anyone verify?  haemphyst, do I go with what your program says?  Is it taking into account the differences in impedance with the individual speakers as talked about earlier ("These values are pretty exact, and provide/allow some fashion of impedance control.")?

Just want to be sure before I order the parts.  Thanks.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
haemphyst 
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Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: November 05, 2004 at 9:24 AM / IP Logged  
When you use a 12dB crossover, the cap value is NOT the same as if you were just using a 6dB crossover slope. Those values are correct.
Update - This is wierd. I just used the calculator, and it does seem to be using the 17 ohm value, just as you said. DYohn, does this crossover calculator use a DCR, or does it use the dynamic impedance when figuring. A 17 ohm peak for a 12 ohm driver would not be out of the question...
I can say that I have used this software MANY times, with VERY pleasing results. There is impedance compensation allowed for in this software - I cannot say for certain that is was allowed for on the tweeter portion, as it did not ask for the inductance of the VC - actually, it DOES ask, I just couldn't provide it, as it was not supplied to me... The woofer sections ARE impedance corrected, as you can see, I did supply the inductance values for the software.
As to which software is correct? That will really be a tough call, as I do not know which one is using AC impedance or DC resistance. The rest of the values are correct, so, personally, I would hold my tongue just right, and go with the JBL. Those small value caps and coils shouldn't cost more than a few bucks, total, and should be easy enough to swap out, if you get a crappy result.
I wish I had a more concrete answer for you, but I don't. Let me know how it all comes out.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: November 05, 2004 at 9:25 AM / IP Logged  

Cap and coil alues don't have to match exactly.  Within 10% is more than fine.  I also usually have a few small value caps handy that can be soldered in to make fine tuning adjustments when building a crossover as you can never be 100% certain using any calculator.  Remember that calculators use ideal values and every speaker, cap and coil is different; none are ideal!  Also, surround speakers are not nearly as critical as mains in terms of having a dip or peak at the crossover point.  I doubt very much you'd hear it if it was there.

The JBL program is very good and accurate.  I am not certain if they use dynamic compensation or straight DCR, but I say trust it and use it as a basis for the circuit then make fine tuning adjustments if necessary.

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stevdart 
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Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: November 05, 2004 at 9:35 AM / IP Logged  

Done deal.  I'll use the values you listed and maybe pick up some spare parts when I order.  Thanks for the replies, gentlemen...and I'll let you know the results when it's all said and done.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
stevdart 
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Posted: November 05, 2004 at 11:40 PM / IP Logged  

Just a note:  I used  thiscalculator later on, and entered the info for a 2nd order crossover for 3500 Hz......I used 12 ohms for the tweeters and 4 ohms for the woofer.  Guess what?  The values were the same (precisely for the tweeter) as the values given by the JBL program.  Interesting differences in calculators given the same information.

More tidbits, just for fun.   While shopping components, looked at a pre-made crossover at PartsExpress, and clicked on details..... http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/260-150s.pdf  Looks like the folks there are using the same JBL program, huh?

Actually, not a bad price on that at $40.  I have $70 in parts for my two crossovers.  Looking forward to building it and I hope it all fits on the smaller 4 X 7" board.

Parts list for (2) three-way dipole crossovers:

C1:  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=027-414&scqty=2

C2:  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=027-358&DID=7  and http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=027-450&scqty=2  (by-pass caps)
C3:  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=027-424&scqty=4

L1:  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-733&scqty=2

L2:  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=255-058&scqty=2
L3:  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-721&scqty=4

R1:  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=004-4.3&scqty=2

R2:  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=004-20&scqty=2

PC boards:  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-122&scqty=2

Other:  resistors, 20 watt:  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=017-.27&scqty=2  and  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=017-1.75K&scqty=2

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