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Completing a 3-Way Component Set


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lakers08 
Copper - Posts: 75
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Joined: December 21, 2004
Posted: August 07, 2005 at 2:45 PM / IP Logged  
I currently have a set of Jl XR 6.5" components in the front of my 2001 Civic. I would like to add a midbass/midrange driver in a set of kick panels to complete the 3-way setup. Right now, two channels of my Jl amplifier are powering the rear deck speakers; I would like to redirect those channels to run the aforementioned kick panel speakers. There is currently too much output from the rear speakers and I feel I would be better served by running those off of deck power.
A search on 3-way component sets revealed most people feel a 4" driver won't add much in terms of midbass response. I'm wondering what size would be ideal for this particular application (ie: 4", 5.25",6"). It doesn't appear that there's alot of room to mount a larger driver. The speakers will receive approximately 75 watts/RMS each from the amplifier.
In addition, can anyone offer any recommendations as to a good choice for this type of speaker? Local shops only carry the component sets; I'd like to stay between $75-150 in terms of price parameters. Thanks in advance for any help.   
boulderguy 
Silver - Posts: 510
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Joined: April 17, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: August 07, 2005 at 11:10 PM / IP Logged  
Either install a 6" sub & use it for midbass and lower and then use the 6" you have for mids (you'll need a new x-over), or start all over with a proper 3 way system (better, but more expensive).
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: August 08, 2005 at 10:30 AM / IP Logged  

If you're using kick panels you can pretty much mount any size speaker you want.  I recomend at least a 6" or 7" for midbass.  Any good quality woofer will work.  The best sounding woofer I've heard in many years is the new Adire Extremis, but it is out of your price range.

You happen to be in luck, as Madisound is having a sale on Audax speakers and they have an amazing price for the VP170G woofer (at the bottom of that page.)  At $9 each this is a steal.  A good sounding woofer that will add the midbass you are missing.  I ordered 4.

And like Boulderguy above mentioned, you will need a good crossover, either electronic or passive, so that the new woofer operates in a passband between the sub (about 80Hz) and the component set woofer (about 250Hz to 400Hz) and of course sets a HP for the component set at whatever you choose for the top of the passband.

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lakers08 
Copper - Posts: 75
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Joined: December 21, 2004
Posted: August 08, 2005 at 11:14 AM / IP Logged  
Wow, that is an astounding price for those Audax speakers. Have you listened to them before or are you familiar with their products? I had been considering a set of CDT 5.25" or 6.5" but they are alot more expensive.
DYohn, a couple of quick questions. You mentioned the need for an additional crossover. My head unit (Eclipse 8454) has an available crossover in "Pro Mode" for those using a 3-way system. Would this be sufficient or will I need an external crossover?
My second question pertains to crossover settings for my current setup. There is a filter control for the front and rear speakers on the Jl 300/4. I currently have the front filter frequency at about 85 Hz (same as sub) with the filter mode switched to "HP." As the components have a passive crossover, should I just switch it to "Off" and send a full-range signal? Thanks.
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: August 08, 2005 at 11:47 AM / IP Logged  

I've used those Audax woofers before (and paid $40 apiece for them.)  They sound good, IMO.  And at $9 how can you go wrong?  Like I said, I ordered 4 just to have them around.

Yes, you can use the 3-way crossovr on your HU.  A good choice.

In your current setup you have the crossover set properly for your components.  The passive crossover is designed to split the signal to the woofer and tweeter and must be used in addition to the HP on the amp.

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lakers08 
Copper - Posts: 75
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 21, 2004
Posted: August 08, 2005 at 12:03 PM / IP Logged  
Thanks, DYohn. I'm going to choose either the Audax woofers or the Adire Extremis. Yes, they're a bit out of my price range but so is everything else I bought. Plus, a Canadian dealer for Adire is close by and they're available for pick-up.
On a separate note, I just talked to a local install shop about adding the additional midbass speakers to my 2-way set. He strongly disagreed with my plan; his reasoning was that adding a different brand of speakers with a different efficiency rating would make everything out of phase and "add absolutely nothing to my system." This is contrary to everything I've heard. Your thoughts?
Dave
"lakers08"      
geepherder 
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Joined: October 27, 2003
Posted: August 08, 2005 at 12:59 PM / IP Logged  

Slap him for wasting a breath.  Here's why: 

A couple mid woofers up front will only help you get better bass response.  Even if the midbass isn't the same volume as the components, it will still be an improvement over what you had before.  That by itself really isn't even an issue either, because you could always turn the gains a hair down on one amp or the other to solve that.  The only reason brand selection would matter is if those speakers would be playing the same frequencies.  (For example: Boston Pro 6.5's up front with some MB Quartz coax's in the back.  Obviously this wouldn't sound good with the natural, warm sound of the Bostons up front combining with the tinny harshness of the Quartz's in back.)  This should not concern you because once you set up your crossover points, your woofers will only be playing sounds below your components, so they will merely complement each other.

As far as his claim of "phasing issues", if you observe proper polarity on all your connections you can't go wrong.  End of story.

My ex once told me I have a perfect face for radio.
lakers08 
Copper - Posts: 75
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 21, 2004
Posted: August 08, 2005 at 1:53 PM / IP Logged  
Thanks, geepherder. As much as I like to support the local car audio businesses in my area, most of the time I find the reps don't know what they're talking about. I had tried to explain about the proposed setup and with the different speakers responsible for different frequencies, to no avail.
If I add a woofer for the lower frequencies, what do I do with my passive Jl crossovers? I mentioned earlier in the thread that my head unit has crossover settings for a 3-way system. Do I simply remove them and exclusively use the Eclipse for tweeter, midbass and woofer frequency allocation?     
boulderguy 
Silver - Posts: 510
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Joined: April 17, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: August 08, 2005 at 1:57 PM / IP Logged  

I agree on smacking the local guy around.  But here's my concern - If I'm grasping this right, you're currently running 75wpc to your 6.5" components for midbass & mids and you're talking about adding a second 6-7" midbass driver up front dedicated to midbass & using the existing components just for mids - highs.  You want to cross everything over so there's no overlap - that right?  

I'm just not seeing much gained thru the whole process.  Meanwhile you're creating a fairly complex x-over setup.  You already have a respectable 6.5 driving your midbass, you're really only talking about seperating the mids from that driver which aren't really that far apart on the food chain anyhow.  I think your midbass response will be very similiar to what you have right now, so will the mids.  That's given that nothing gets screwed up with the x-overs.

I think the real advantage to a 3-way system (not that there's THAT much IMO) is having a smaller mid driver that can be mounted up higher & close to a high-mounted tweeter.  As I'm understanding this, you're still keeping your mids positioned down low(?) b/c it's a large driver.  It sounds like your best mid-bass improvement would come from running the new mid-bass & keeping the existing midbass as overlap (here come new problems).  Or installing an 8" for midbass in a 3-way system.

It'd help to know exactly what we're dealing with here - factory kicks or custom?  What's the cutout size & depth?  How's your midbass as is?  Where's the tweeter mounted?

boulderguy 
Silver - Posts: 510
Silver spacespace
Joined: April 17, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: August 08, 2005 at 1:59 PM / IP Logged  

Hey, also - what's your sub setup as well?

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