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allmet33 
Copper - Posts: 112
Copper spacespace
Joined: March 02, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: July 21, 2008 at 3:41 PM / IP Logged  

How do you know if a capacitor isn't doing it's intended job???

Here's my dilema.  I hooked up a 1.2 farad cap thinking it would help me with my light dimming problem and it has not.  The amp I am running is a Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 (rated at 612 watts rms @ 1,2 or 4 ohms), the amp is currently running a 2 ohm load.  Anyway, I have seen no change in the lights dimming when the bass drops.

Before you ask, yes, I have checked and rechecked my ground points and they are all very tight.  I ground the paint away to make sure the connection is to bare metal.  No connection point is loose and I'm using 4 gauge wiring from the battery, to the cap and from the cap to the amp.  The ground wire is matching 4 gauge with the cap and amp ground seperately to the chassis.  I have noticed when the stereo is playing at low levels, the voltage displays between 13.6 and 14.2 (depending on volume).  As I crank it up, bass drops take the charge down to about 12.3, but the charge goes back up to the mid-13's until the next drop.  Is all this normal??? capacitor -- posted image.

'06 Hyundai Azera - Pioneer FH-P4200MP / Factory center channel & tweeters / Infinity Kappa 62.7i's; all 4 doors, 2 Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2 10" subs pushed w/Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 amp
i am an idiot 
Platinum - Posts: 13,666
Platinum spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: September 21, 2006
Location: Louisiana, United States
Posted: July 21, 2008 at 4:36 PM / IP Logged  

Capacitors do not work.  Following is a suggested wiring diagram for a capacitor.

capacitor -- posted image.

megaman 
Copper - Posts: 385
Copper spacespace
Joined: June 24, 2008
Location: Montana, United States
Posted: July 21, 2008 at 4:50 PM / IP Logged  

You're hyundai has a tiny alternator.  First thing is to change out the battery and possibly hook up a second at the amp.  Capacitors are kinda like a band-aid in systems with "electrical" problems.  They have their use if they are installed in the correct system.  Not saying your's is wrong, but IMHO you're electrical system in the Hyundai is inadequate.

DYohn 
Moderator - Posts: 10,741
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: July 21, 2008 at 5:12 PM / IP Logged  

megaman wrote:
You're hyundai has a tiny alternator.  First thing is to change out the battery and possibly hook up a second at the amp.  Capacitors are kinda like a band-aid in systems with "electrical" problems.  They have their use if they are installed in the correct system.  Not saying your's is wrong, but IMHO you're electrical system in the Hyundai is inadequate.

... and adding a battery won't help eithr.  Upgrade the alternator.

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haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: July 21, 2008 at 8:14 PM / IP Logged  
i am an idiot wrote:

Capacitors do not work.  Following is a suggested wiring diagram for a capacitor.

    capacitor -- posted image.

Always loved that one!
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
i am an idiot 
Platinum - Posts: 13,666
Platinum spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: September 21, 2006
Location: Louisiana, United States
Posted: July 21, 2008 at 9:00 PM / IP Logged  

If you liked that one, you are going to love this one.  I even named it HaemCap.

capacitor -- posted image.

allmet33 
Copper - Posts: 112
Copper spacespace
Joined: March 02, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: July 22, 2008 at 8:06 AM / IP Logged  

Okay...so capacitors don't work (according to some) and then some say they do.  If it's intended purpose is to store electricity for the amp(s) to draw on when the demand is needed (as opposed to drawing directly from the battery) why don't they work???  If they don't work, then why would so many installers install them in systems that push 500 watts or greater???  This is quite confusing.  You're saying my alternator is too small, but why would they install one that supposedly handles the power needs of the car, but then also have 4...yes, count them...4 12 volt plugs that can be used at any given time for whatever purpose.  I would think that knowing there could be extra draw on the electrical system...the alternator would be a little stronger than the car's basic needs.

I am one to appreciate humor, but so far...nobody has answered my questions.  You've simply stated your strong opinions without much of an explanation, which doesn't help me understand one way or the other.  I'm not a car audio novice, nor am I the grand wizard...I am simply trying to learn and understand so that my system can be the best it can be.

Thank you.

'06 Hyundai Azera - Pioneer FH-P4200MP / Factory center channel & tweeters / Infinity Kappa 62.7i's; all 4 doors, 2 Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2 10" subs pushed w/Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 amp
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: July 22, 2008 at 8:29 AM / IP Logged  

1.  Capacitors do, of course, "work."  They do exactly what any capacitor does in an electrical system, they resist changes in voltage.  They are part of every amplifier power supply to help stabilize rail voltage.  The point of the sarcasm is that they ONLY work as intended (to help an amplifier sustain peak outputs during short transients) they do NOT improve the capacity of your electrical system.  Indeed, if the alternator is already operating near its capacity, a cap will only make matters worse, not better.

2.  Many installers use them for their intended purposes, but far more install them because they look cool, or because they do not understand how they work and have bought into the marketing hype, or because people expect them, or because they can charge a lot of money from unsuspecting customers for them.

3.  You need a high-output alternator.  Period.  Most cars do when a large car audio amplifier is installed.

That should answer your questions - exactly as was already done.

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allmet33 
Copper - Posts: 112
Copper spacespace
Joined: March 02, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: July 22, 2008 at 11:15 AM / IP Logged  

Considering I don't know anyone from adam in this forum, I don't know if the sarcasm is to be taken seriously or as a joke or what.  What I got from the sarcasm was that capacitors don't work (then someone posted that they do).  I also got that my alternator is probably not strong enough.  However, it didn't give me the why's.  You gave a much better explanation that is pretty much black and white...literally.  The only question I have based on your posting is, how does a capacitor make matters worse IF the alternator is operating near it's capacity?

'06 Hyundai Azera - Pioneer FH-P4200MP / Factory center channel & tweeters / Infinity Kappa 62.7i's; all 4 doors, 2 Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2 10" subs pushed w/Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 amp
DYohn 
Moderator - Posts: 10,741
Moderator spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: July 22, 2008 at 11:25 AM / IP Logged  

allmet33 wrote:
Considering I don't know anyone from adam in this forum,

Click on people's profiles for more information.

allmet33 wrote:
The only question I have based on your posting is, how does a capacitor make matters worse IF the alternator is operating near it's capacity?

A capacitor must be recharged and only the alternator can do that.  If the system demands are already causing alternator voltage to droop, once the cap discharges (which takes a second or two) it becomes just another load on the system, helping further overload the alternator.  The first step in any system design is to audit the alternator loading: what does the vehicle require and what size is the alt.  This gives you an idea of how much excess capacity you can use up with an audio system.  In a Hyundai, that is probably less than 20 amps.  Then figure out how much demand your audio system is likely to add to the system and upgrade the alt (and the big 3) appropriately.  I almost never recommend using caps in daily drivers, and then only for specific problems like noise.  The fallacy is believing they will help solve an electrical overload situation.  They are useless for that purpose.

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