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are my connections good for big 3


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kenwood_nut 
Stock Boy - Posts: 227
Stock Boy spacespace
Joined: April 10, 2009
Location: Washington, United States
Posted: May 07, 2009 at 7:13 AM / IP Logged  

Glad I could be of assistance.  It just so happens that at almost 51 years old, the majority of my automotive experience has been under the hood.  Sure, I'd done tranny work, rear ends, brakes, clutches, wiring and lots of underdash stuff.  But most of my time my head has been under hoods, and ironically it's been mosty Fords.  Like I said earlier, since my first car as a teen, only a few have not been Fords.  So I've seen my share of Ford grounds.  Now if you had a Dodge truck or something, I'd have to call my best friend and see what he thought.  So if you ever have any other questions about your F150, feel free to ask.  If I can give you an honest answer, I will.  You're doing great.  Keep it up.  And yes, that seat belt ground should be good.  Myself, I would make a new ground hole, but hey, it will work. 

What are you mounting your amp to?  The sub box?  Good.  As long as you are not going to just lay it or bolt it to the bare floor.  If you're going to mount it on the floor, you MUST put rubber grommets between each screw hole so the body of the amp doesn't touch the metal.  Or you can mount it on a piece of wood, then screw the wood down.  But if you mount the amp to metal, you'll run the risk of getting a ground loop and you'll hear it in your speakers.

Keep us posted.  And good luck with the system!

haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: May 07, 2009 at 8:55 AM / IP Logged  
MOSTLY, I agree with everything you have made as suggestions, with these three exceptions:
1:
kenwood_nut wrote:
It doesn't really need to be a 1 or 0 gauge ground from the engine to the frame. Heck, an 8g is fine.
WHATEVER SIZE HIS POSITIVE CABLE IS, THE GROUNDS MUST BE THE SAME (or total equivalent) SIZE. That is a current path, and if the alternator demands an output cable that large, where is the return if you suggest an 8 gauge? This is simple electronics, and basic electrical theory. If he is oversizing his alternator cable, (which seems likely, as he never did mention an HO alternator) then he must still have a return (ground) rated for whatever the alternator is rated for.
2:
kenwood_nut wrote:
And yes, that seat belt ground should be good.  Myself, I would make a new ground hole, but hey, it will work.
NEVER ground to the seatbolt. It is generally spot-welded to the body (or even the chassis) and is an exceptionally poor choice for a solid return path.
C:
kenwood_nut wrote:
If you're going to mount it on the floor, you MUST put rubber grommets between each screw hole so the body of the amp doesn't touch the metal. {content deleted here} But if you mount the amp to metal, you'll run the risk of getting a ground loop and you'll hear it in your speakers.
This is also not correct. Take your VOM, and test between the chassis and the ground terminal on the amplifier. It will read 0 ohms (or at a minimum, continuity). It is electrically the SAME. Replay all of the times that you thought that screwing the amp to the floor produced noise, and I'll BET you that the amp was grounded to the seatbolt... It's a common occurrence, because that seatbelt- or seat- bolt is CLOSE! It's right there! Why not use it? All screwing to the chassis/frame can do is IMPROVE the return path, by reducing resistance to the return. I have seen instances where removing the isolation from the installation points can REMOVE ground loops, as it adds connections points, therefore reducing total return resistance. Plus, it will oftentimes be a lower resistance than the spot-welded bolt. :)
If he gets a ground loop after all of the good advice that you have given him already, then I would bet dollars to doughnuts that it would be on the head-unit end, and IT'S assocated ground path...
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
kenwood_nut 
Stock Boy - Posts: 227
Stock Boy spacespace
Joined: April 10, 2009
Location: Washington, United States
Posted: May 07, 2009 at 12:34 PM / IP Logged  

haemphyst wrote:
MOSTLY, I agree with everything you have made as suggestions, with these three exceptions:
1:
kenwood_nut wrote:
It doesn't really need to be a 1 or 0 gauge ground from the engine to the frame. Heck, an 8g is fine.
WHATEVER SIZE HIS POSITIVE CABLE IS, THE GROUNDS MUST BE THE SAME (or total equivalent) SIZE. That is a current path, and if the alternator demands an output cable that large, where is the return if you suggest an 8 gauge? This is simple electronics, and basic electrical theory. If he is oversizing his alternator cable, (which seems likely, as he never did mention an HO alternator) then he must still have a return (ground) rated for whatever the alternator is rated for.

From the engine to the frame doesn't need to be 1 or 0. Engine to battery maybe, but that gives 3 grounds from the engine.  I'm thinking you thought I meant the negative from the battery to the block.  I've never seen a huge cable from the engine to the frame.  But oh well.  But no, I did not mean 8 gauge from the battery.

2:
kenwood_nut wrote:
And yes, that seat belt ground should be good.  Myself, I would make a new ground hole, but hey, it will work.
NEVER ground to the seatbolt. It is generally spot-welded to the body (or even the chassis) and is an exceptionally poor choice for a solid return path.

You'll notice I said "should be" and "I would make a new ground hole".  But for a beginner with a simple one amp system, it WILL work.  Now once he starts adding more to his stereo I would think he should add a new hole.  Heck, I've seen a LOT of people use the seat bolts for grounds without any problems.  I never do it myself, but it's not like it wouldn't ground.

C:

kenwood_nut wrote:
If you're going to mount it on the floor, you MUST put rubber grommets between each screw hole so the body of the amp doesn't touch the metal. {content deleted here} But if you mount the amp to metal, you'll run the risk of getting a ground loop and you'll hear it in your speakers.
This is also not correct. Take your VOM, and test between the chassis and the ground terminal on the amplifier. It will read 0 ohms (or at a minimum, continuity). It is electrically the SAME. Replay all of the times that you thought that screwing the amp to the floor produced noise, and I'll BET you that the amp was grounded to the seatbolt... It's a common occurrence, because that seatbelt- or seat- bolt is CLOSE! It's right there! Why not use it? All screwing to the chassis/frame can do is IMPROVE the return path, by reducing resistance to the return. I have seen instances where removing the isolation from the installation points can REMOVE ground loops, as it adds connections points, therefore reducing total return resistance. Plus, it will oftentimes be a lower resistance than the spot-welded bolt. :)

I guess this is one area where I'll have to continue to disagree.  I've forever read in every car audio source I've seen that it is a BAD idea to mount an amp directly to a metal floorboard.  Apparently we have different theories on this.

Keep in mind, man, that this guy is doing a very simple install just to have tunes.  He has the right ideas on using a large wire gauge and doing the Big 3.  That's a start.  Now had he said "I plan to enter my car into several IASCA events and install 5 amps and 6 subs along with an assortment of MB Quarts", I would have been a bit more specific as to Do's or Don't's.  But we could go on and on about what we agree on or disagree on.  This forum wouldn't be needed if everyone in the world all agreed on the exact same thing.  But I'm just trying to help a brotha out.  Perhaps I should have let someone else answer his questions.

If he gets a ground loop after all of the good advice that you have given him already, then I would bet dollars to doughnuts that it would be on the head-unit end, and IT'S assocated ground path...

When I did my Introduction in this forum, you might notice I didn't say I was an MECP-Certified Installer with 20 years experience.  I only mentioned that I've been messing with car audio since the 70's when I was in my late teens.  Not once have I ever had a ground loop issue, have never fried a single thing, and only had that famous "alternator whine" a few times with my cheap "toss it under the seat and call it good" systems in the early years.  And I'm certainly not going to make any attempts to prove anyone else wrong here in the forum.  In fact, after this, maybe it's best if I just leave my advice to myself and let the "experts" solve everyone else's issues.  It would save me from having people disagree with things I suggest.  You might also notice I've not once posted comments about anyone's systems where the amps are just tossed on the sub box with wires exposed all over the place.  I'll admire their brand choices, but would never cut them down or tell them they did something wrong.  Which was the case here.  I did my best to help someone with an issue I am familiar with: Ford's ground wires.

We still cool?are my connections good for big 3 - Page 3 -- posted image.

rfhvhtoo 
Copper - Posts: 238
Copper spacespace
Joined: June 13, 2008
Location: Florida, United States
Posted: May 07, 2009 at 3:14 PM / IP Logged  

are my connections good for big 3 - Page 3 -- posted image.

Now this ground is to the frame of my truck on the floor. This isn't good? The terminal is under the flat piece of metal where the the metal is brushed and "Shiny". 

are my connections good for big 3 - Page 3 -- posted image.

I can't hear you!
kenwood_nut 
Stock Boy - Posts: 227
Stock Boy spacespace
Joined: April 10, 2009
Location: Washington, United States
Posted: May 07, 2009 at 4:37 PM / IP Logged  
Personally, I wouldn't suggest this point for a ground.  I was thinking you meant the bolt that holds the seat down, not the seat belt.  If you have a way, and a drill, you would be better off making a new hole for your ground besides the seat belt one.  Another forum member is also saying neither are good, but my personal opinion is the seat mounting bolt is fine but I would not use the seat BELT mounting bolt.  Just my own thoughts on it.
joch1314 
Copper - Posts: 301
Copper spacespace
Joined: March 25, 2008
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: May 07, 2009 at 7:08 PM / IP Logged  

I wouldn't ground it there either...if anything remove the pillar and ground your amp under the those panels.  It'll look a lot cleaner and should result in a better ground for you once you remove the paint and get to bare metal. 

I agree with haemphyst with mounting the amp to bare metal...not only will "electrically be the same" but it can also increase your heatsink so to speak.  The heat that is produced from the amp can be transferred to the mounting location, and in climates where your amp is already hot from sitting in a hot car all day, the ability to transfer some of that heat can keep your amp from shutting off or going into protect mode to cool itself off.  Yao Ming?!!!    

...half of the truth can be worse than a lie. <----Roger Russell said that..
rfhvhtoo 
Copper - Posts: 238
Copper spacespace
Joined: June 13, 2008
Location: Florida, United States
Posted: May 07, 2009 at 9:14 PM / IP Logged  
alright so never mind about that ground. Now I think you're suggesting the middle seatbelt bracket holder that is behind the backseat is a good ground? It is bare metal and mounts to the cab and (maybe) through to the frame. I'll take a picture in the morning to let you see what im talking about. OR is that the spot you are talking about?
I can't hear you!
kenwood_nut 
Stock Boy - Posts: 227
Stock Boy spacespace
Joined: April 10, 2009
Location: Washington, United States
Posted: May 07, 2009 at 10:18 PM / IP Logged  

I realize I might not be taken seriously by some folks, so rather than state my opinion about grounding and mounting, let me go ahead and copy something from the Crutchfield Guidebook Series #000CAR; Advanced Car Stereo Installations and Problem Solving, page 23, Installation Steps to Avoid Noise In Multi-Component Systems. This was sent to me from Crutchfield several years ago, and is only one of the many sources I've gathered valuable information from.  Others have included magazines such as Car Audio & Electronics, Car Stereo Review, and many others.  I've actually saved technical articles from car audio magazines for many years, and have a notebook full of important and valuable information.  I don't just make this stuff up.  So anyway, this is what page 23 says in the Crutchfied Guidebook:

1. Mounting: Make sure that none of your components are mounted directly to steel/metal.  A lot of components have their internal grounds mounted to the chassis of the component. Mounting a component like this to steel/metal, and then connecting its ground wire, will result in a loop.  It is best to mount all of your components on a nonconductive (wood) mounting rack.

2. Distinguish Between Signal Ground and Power Ground: There are two different grounds. The signal path ground is in part a sheild, meant to protect the signals traveling along the inner wire from noise. The power grounds provide the ground paths which allow the various amplifiers within the system to operate. The signal ground can be considered more delicate than the power ground, and it is for this reason that you do not ground the two of them together.

3. The Power Ground: The power ground coming out of the amplifers should be as short as possible. Contrary to popular belief, it is not best to run a return ground lead all the way to the battery. If you are using mulitple amplifiers, it is best to connect all of the grounds to the same area with about 1/2 inch seperating each of them. The metal should be free of paint and grease. The grounds should be secured using bolts/screws with star washers.

4. The Signal Ground: All signal grounds should be connected to the back of the receiver's chassis. The chassis should then be grounded to a ground with either 1/2 inch braided ground strap, or with multi-strand #10 wire. Run this ground to the firewall, or to the heaviest piece of steel/metal you can find. All signal grounds normally are carried through the braided shielding (barrel side) of RCA connector, so running multiple ground wires back to the head unit is not normally necessary. You can test the signal ground with an ohmmeter. Check for continuity between the barrel side of the input RCA jack and the ground lead of the component. If there is continuity, try running that component first with its ground lead disconnected, and check the unit's operation. If the unit does not work, run the ground lead from that component back up to the indash receiver. However, if there is continuity, attach component's ground lead with the amplifier grounds.

So, there you have it, steps on how to avoid noise in mulit-component systems, strait from the mouths of Crutchfield, a leading source in the mail-order electronics industry.  If you don't agree with any of it, their phone number is easily found online and I'm sure they would love to hear that they are wrong.  But I don't.  I don't make stuff up that I post.  I get it from many reliable sources, and have collected this information for many years.

Hope this helps. This will be my last addition to this thread.  Good luck, dude!  You're getting there!  I'm anxious to read where you post that it all worked out and your system is noise-free and slammin' hard core!

rfhvhtoo 
Copper - Posts: 238
Copper spacespace
Joined: June 13, 2008
Location: Florida, United States
Posted: May 08, 2009 at 5:35 PM / IP Logged  

Alright now here are some places for ground that I hahve seen in other forums. But this is actually my Truck.

GROUND #1 (onto one of the 2 Black Bolts on the metal bracket)

are my connections good for big 3 - Page 3 -- posted image.

GROUND #2 (the gray metal bolt next to the seatbelt Bracket. with the paint scratched away)

are my connections good for big 3 - Page 3 -- posted image.

GROUND #3 (where the jack bolts to the cab of my the truck) Both pictures same area

are my connections good for big 3 - Page 3 -- posted image. are my connections good for big 3 - Page 3 -- posted image.

And Also I have had problems with amplifiers going into protect mode when mounted onto the bare metal where my ground is. Just though I would throw that out there.

So are these any good areas?

I can't hear you!
aznboi3644 
Gold - Posts: 2,600
Gold spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: May 01, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: May 08, 2009 at 6:28 PM / IP Logged  
just drill a hole and use a bole and nut
Custom Enclosure Design
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