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battery, cap, ho alternator or all 3?


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e_lsas 
Member - Posts: 10
Member spacespace
Joined: August 21, 2009
Location: New York, United States
Posted: August 21, 2009 at 12:51 PM / IP Logged  
thanks in advance for your. its my first post after registering and i love the site.
ok guys i really need some help here, im kind of in a hurry so i cant give much details as far as specs go but ill return afterwords and update. heres my dilemma.
my brother has a 2009 ford escape with the L4 engine in it.
he just purchased a lot of stuff which ill list below and wants me to put it ALL in his car and make it work.
im good at simple setups but this is over my head so i need some help as far as power demands go.
-Soundstream XXX-18 Quad VC 1.2 OHMS each 10k RMS (combined)
-4 10" EV for Mids (Blac Label) 300RMS each
-4 Beyma 6.75" series 90 8ohm ea 100 RMS for highs+mids
-8 Cadence titanium 1" titanium dome Tweeters 100RMS each
-4 Sound Storm CR5000.1 mono amps for the sub
-2 Hifonics 2ch Zeus 1000
-2 Hifonics Zeus 4Ch Zeus model 6410
-40 farad soundstream cap
i have the the 4 EV's to the two 2ch Zeus's; 4 Beymas to one of the 4ch and the tweeters to the other 4ch. and the XXX-18 to the four SS CRS5000.1 one to each coil. and everything running trough the capacitor.
the dilemma here is the power demands. he wants to be able to post up on get togethers and at the beach and so on and run his system for at least 3 or 4 hours non stop with his car on obviously.
my concern is current draw and how to supply it all. should i put two big alternators over his stock one, should i buy batteries and one alternator, or should i just buy batteries and keep the alternators stock? current draw and charging rate have always baffled me. im sure its simple to some ppl but not to me. PLEASE HELP ME.
its always better when you do it yourself!!!
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: August 21, 2009 at 12:55 PM / IP Logged  
Upgrade Big 3 and alt first.
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e_lsas 
Member - Posts: 10
Member spacespace
Joined: August 21, 2009
Location: New York, United States
Posted: August 21, 2009 at 2:44 PM / IP Logged  
The Big 3 upgrade is definetely on the to do list. When you say upgrade the alternator, do you mean the stock one or to add another one? My intentions are to run this system completely independent from the stock power source. Its own batteries and alternator. The question is how many amps does the alternator need to be and how many batts would I need? Also if the "alt amp rate" to "batt quantity" would change would it be beneficial. For example. A higher amperage alt and 2 batts vice a lower amperage alt and 5 batts. Does it matter at all? If so then please explain and suggest what would be ideal. Money isn't an issue but I want to be considerate with his pockets too. Thanks.
Ps: you guys reply fast I like that.
its always better when you do it yourself!!!
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: August 21, 2009 at 6:28 PM / IP Logged  
There is no question, or at least there SHOULD be no question... The batteries do not provide the power to your system, the alternator does. The alternator is the power source for EVERY device in your car.
Unless you are planning this for a competition car, and/or you are planning on EXTENDED engine-off, parking lot listening times, then one HO alternator, and one good spiral cell battery will be fine. (I personally would recommend the Optima red-top or something similar... Others will say something different.)
Far a stand-alone system, as far as figuring the amp rating of your alternator, it needs to be at least 90% of the fuse ratings on the amplifiers - that's my rule-of-thumb - the battery will fill in the necessary peaks... Multiple batteries? Add 5A per battery BEYOND that calculation.
If you are just going to use the one charging/power system, whatever the existing alternator is, times .8, then add THAT to the new alternator demand.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
e_lsas 
Member - Posts: 10
Member spacespace
Joined: August 21, 2009
Location: New York, United States
Posted: August 22, 2009 at 1:52 AM / IP Logged  
Ok so you are saying that I can play this system "parking lot playing" with just one HO alternator, lets say 200 amps and a spiral cell battery_ lets say Optima yellow top. 1 alt and 1 battery for about 14000 watt RMS system?
Or were you just giving me a general ruke of thumb to follow as far as amp draw calculations go. Because based on a formula to calculate it found on the Crutchfield website I calculated apprx 595amps as my total current draw at peak operaion. So at a 75% vol it should be about 420amps.
Based on other feedback I was told by one person that 4 kinetic 3800's and 2 200amp alternators would be the minimum. A. . I was also explained that calculating current draw based on fuse values gives you more of a "ballpark general value". That the ideal way would be calculating it using the RMS per channel rating of each amp combined..
I would just like for a pro to give me a sure fire formula.. Last thing I need is to have my brother turn his system up and all hell break lose because there isn't enough juice..
Sorry for the essays and run abouts, I just want to make sure that I do it right. Thanks guys...
its always better when you do it yourself!!!
Paradigm 
Silver - Posts: 284
Silver spacespace
Joined: November 25, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: August 22, 2009 at 9:11 AM / IP Logged  

e_lsas wrote:
Ok so you are saying that I can play this system "parking lot playing" with just one HO alternator, lets say 200 amps and a spiral cell battery_ lets say Optima yellow top. 1 alt and 1 battery for about 14000 watt RMS system?
Or were you just giving me a general ruke of thumb to follow as far as amp draw calculations go. Because based on a formula to calculate it found on the Crutchfield website I calculated apprx 595amps as my total current draw at peak operaion. So at a 75% vol it should be about 420amps.
Based on other feedback I was told by one person that 4 kinetic 3800's and 2 200amp alternators would be the minimum. A. . I was also explained that calculating current draw based on fuse values gives you more of a "ballpark general value". That the ideal way would be calculating it using the RMS per channel rating of each amp combined..
I would just like for a pro to give me a sure fire formula.. Last thing I need is to have my brother turn his system up and all hell break lose because there isn't enough juice..
Sorry for the essays and run abouts, I just want to make sure that I do it right. Thanks guys...

What do you mean, like a prison riot? Hey, esse, how come you not playin the tunes no mo'? You think we foolin' around o' sumthin? We can't be building no sand castles without music, comprende? We gonna jack you up if you don't get that stuff bumpin again! battery, cap, ho alternator or all 3? -- posted image.

Go with the haemphyst. Get the biggest alternator your brother can afford, do the Big 3, and get a Red Top or similar battery. This should get you your desired goal or at least close to it.

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DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: August 22, 2009 at 9:45 AM / IP Logged  

A few comments on your system design.  First, only add batteries if you plan to operate your system with the engine off, and consider using an isolator to protect your main battery so you can still start the car when the audio batteries are dead.  Second, what are you using for crossover(s)?  Why are you adding 10" sound reinforcement speakers for "mids"?  What steps are you taking to match their sensitivity to the 6.75" speaker that are your actual mids?  Do you have an RTA or other meters to get the system level matched properly?  And lastly, don't think for a second those Sound Storm amps will perform anywhere near their rating.  Those are really about max 1500 watt amps at 14.4 volts.  On battery power they will max out at less than 1000 watts.  Use better amps if you can.  And I am not familiar with those subwoofers but Soundstream brand products are generally pretty iffy these days.

Spend lots of time and money on sound treatments for this large an install, and do not scrimp on wire gauges.  You will need custom enclosures for those subs and for those EV woofers, so be sure you plan it carefully and build it right..

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e_lsas 
Member - Posts: 10
Member spacespace
Joined: August 21, 2009
Location: New York, United States
Posted: August 22, 2009 at 11:44 AM / IP Logged  
thanks guys, you have all been of great help. now i have another question. everyone has their own opinion on this one. as far as batteries go, i hear Powermaster, Kinetic, optima red tops, optima yellow top, etc. anyone has any recommendation as far as this goes? i hear the yellow top is better than the red top, i hear kinetic is double the yellow top, i hear ppl swear by powermaster. has anyone used any one of these first hand or has had any comparison experiences?
as far as the set up goes, its all running through rockford fosgate's 3sixty2 sound processor, to be controlled via computer/palm pilot. it has appx 156 band EQ for the 2 front, 2 back, and sub (appx 112 bands) and center ch.
i have an aditional clarion crossover for the system as well. ill be running the output for the door speakers out of the front output, the EV mid-ranges out of the rear output and the sub out of the sub output.
as far as the sound storm amps, i didnt have a say on that... he bought all of that on his own and just showed up one day saying "heres a challenge for you, PUT ALL THIS IN THERE AND MAKE IT WORK" i was like OK. so here i am. ive read reviews on them and they were pretty good so i have faith, but you get what you pay for and at the end of the day that falls on him.
as far as the soundstream sub, thats the biggest one they have, you can find details of it on the soundstream site under XXX series. the enclosure of it is built under manufacturer specifications for optimal performance, so im kind of going with that.
the enclosures for the EV's will be made in fiberglass in order to accomodate it in the back. it will sit on the sides of the trunk area occupying the empty space of the windows with the speakers at an angle facing fwd.
as of wire guage im running rockford fosgate 1/0 from alt to batts to cap and 4ga to every amp.
he has 2 power plant distribution blocks with 100A fuses x4 on each one, a remote signal input/output and with amp/volt LED digital read outs and a capacitor input output. look up Soundstream power plant. he also has the soundstream SC-40CA capacitor which is a 40 Farad cap.
once the install is complete i will post pics.
remember im just trying to make it all fit and work. whether what he bought is crap or not i guess we'll find out but for his sake i hope everything works out good.
as far as matching the 10's and 6.75's sensitivity, please explain because you lost me there. i was just going to adjust it from the amp and the 3sixty.2. the 2sixty.2 has signl delay adjustments, x-overs and EQs that help fine tune all of that. is there anything in addition that i might need? if theres anything you guys feel i can have him buy to make the setup better please let me know and it will get put on order asap. thanks guys.
its always better when you do it yourself!!!
DYohn 
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Moderator spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: August 22, 2009 at 12:19 PM / IP Logged  

Hmm, please post the model number of the 10" EV speakers you're using.  The Black Label is a 12" driver intended for electric guitar application. 

Sensitivity is how loud each driver will play with a given input level.   I suspect the sensitivity of the EV drivers is much higher than your Beyma mids, which means they will not blend well at their crossover point unless you carefully level match them.

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e_lsas 
Member - Posts: 10
Member spacespace
Joined: August 21, 2009
Location: New York, United States
Posted: August 22, 2009 at 2:50 PM / IP Logged  
Electro-Voice EVM10DLX sorry about the Blac Label part... thats was a confusion. thats the correct model above. and the bayma model number is 6MI90
i had a theory, which was i wanted to test out.
is it possible to set the beyma to operate within a certain frequency range and the EV to operate at another frequency range in which it doesnt crossover with each other.
example. the EV running between 100hz to 2000hz and the Beymas to operate from like 2100hz to 8,000hz and then the tweeters from 8khz to 25khz.
the reason behind it is that if i can accomplish that i can get louder voice from mid-range frequencies because i can drive the EVs harder than the beymas, also the beymas are built to litteraly have no excursion on the cone. so to get the EV's to drive in that frequency range would be ideal because it qould sound a lot clearer.
what do you think?
its always better when you do it yourself!!!
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