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Paradigm 
Silver - Posts: 284
Silver spacespace
Joined: November 25, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: February 01, 2005 at 8:50 AM / IP Logged  
wayland1985 wrote:

Why would I need a 1/0 gauge ground coming from the amp, if all I have going into the amp is a 4 gauge wire?

What I was trying to say in that post is i have 1/0 going all the way to the rear of the SUV to a fused distribution block, which powers two amplifiers.
from that fused block, I have 8 ga. going to 1 amp,  and 4 going to another.
Besides,  I had the grounds going through a 1/0 gauge distrobution block, but changing it to a direct ground solved half of my problems.   PLUS the amp can't take 1/0 gauge wire.....it's designed for 4 ga.

If you start off from your battery with 1/0 gauge, you need to end at your grounding point with 1/0 gauge. What is in the middle is relatively unimportant from an in/out standpoint...you can buy an adaptor to go from 1/0 gauge to 4 gauge to fit in your amp. Someone else will need to provide you with a link for one, though.

VEHICLE: 2002 GMC Sonoma ZR2
Alpine CDA-7940
AudioControl EQT x2
JL Audio 1000/1
JL Audio 10W6 (originals) x3
Kicker ZR120
Kicker ZR460
Polk GXR-6 x4
Polk GXR-4 x2
Paradigm 
Silver - Posts: 284
Silver spacespace
Joined: November 25, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: February 01, 2005 at 8:58 AM / IP Logged  
wayland1985 wrote:

...Besides,  when you pick up a JL audio product,  what do you think you're paying for?  A subwoofer with an internal supercomputer,  or an amplifier with fiber-optic wires, solid gold components, and a bulletproof circuitboard???   Although possible, I don't find it likely at all.  If anything,  you're paying 100 dollars to buy the letter "J",  another 100 to buy the letter "L"  and 200 to glue a W7 badge on ( the word AUDIO is thrown in for free).

Even though I'm sure you meant this in jest, this is not completly true or accurate. And I'm not just talking about the reference to JL Audio - this goes for just about any company that is worth a dime. You do not pay for the name (technically speaking), although lots of people think of it that way. Just something to think about...

VEHICLE: 2002 GMC Sonoma ZR2
Alpine CDA-7940
AudioControl EQT x2
JL Audio 1000/1
JL Audio 10W6 (originals) x3
Kicker ZR120
Kicker ZR460
Polk GXR-6 x4
Polk GXR-4 x2
white installer 
Member - Posts: 8
Member spacespace
Joined: January 31, 2005
Posted: February 01, 2005 at 3:12 PM / IP Logged  
"If you start off from your battery with 1/0 gauge, you need to end at your grounding point with 1/0 gauge. What is in the middle is relatively unimportant from an in/out standpoint...you can buy an adaptor to go from 1/0 gauge to 4 gauge to fit in your amp. Someone else will need to provide you with a link for one, though."
If you look at ANY amplifier installation kit... the ground is the same guage as the power... because your amps are drawing SO much power... the - side (the ground) cant supply enough juice... which would mean that you are not getting the right voltage...
you you CAN do... is take your 4 guage from the amp... and 8 guage from the OTHEr... make a - grounding "collector" (opposide of distirbution)
below is the setup you SHOULD have...
How many farads? - Page 4 -- posted image.
white installer 
Member - Posts: 8
Member spacespace
Joined: January 31, 2005
Posted: February 01, 2005 at 3:20 PM / IP Logged  
well the image didnt show up.... but you HAVE to do is get the same guage wire as your ground... as your power is...
you can easily ahcieve this by getting a distribution block...getting the fuses that your amp would need... (double the protection @ the same time)... and having an 8 guage input... and a 4 guage input..
and out of there... you should have a single 0/1 guage wire... going to the ground...
a few questions...
did you scrape away the paint before tapping into your chassi (or trunk shell) i would also recommend the big three (alt + to fuse box under the hood... battery+ to the fuse box of the car... (under the hood... and your battery - to the chassi... as CLOSE as possible)
chances are your car's STOCK sh*tty 10 guage... just cant compete with the demands of your system...
heres what you need to do... and do them as soon as possible...
1. The big three...as described above
2. 0/1 guage grounding... use the "collector" block...
3. make CERTAIN!! that your ground is a good ground... a seatbelt bolt is a good ground because it is RIGHT into the frame...
-Rob
customsuburb 
Gold - Posts: 1,813
Gold spacespace
Joined: January 17, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: February 01, 2005 at 4:19 PM / IP Logged  

white installer wrote:
.... 3. make CERTAIN!! that your ground is a good ground... a seatbelt bolt is a good ground because it is RIGHT into the frame...
-Rob

I wouldn't reccomend a seat belt bolt as a good ground. It might be better then other places but drilling a hole directly on the chassis is usually better. I think GM uses "gorilla snot" around their seat belt bolts so using one of those bolts with that stuff around it would not be a good ground at all.

forbidden 
Platinum - Posts: 5,352
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: November 01, 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posted: February 01, 2005 at 5:23 PM / IP Logged  

I second that, a seatbelt bolt is actually in 99% of the cases a bad grounding point as they are basically a nut spot welded to the sheetmetal and not to the frame. This spot welding creates a high resistance for current to pass through.The "gorilla snot" also makes the matter even worse. Had it been "dog slobber" you would have been good to go.

The BIG 3 also has a much older and wiser 4th brother. This 4th brother if needed is a ground direct to the battery. If the spot you have chosen for your grounds has a return resistance of 1/2 ohm or greater (ewwww) then it is best to ground direct to the battery with as large a wire as the power wire. It is called resistance on the ground return and what it equates to is you eating a foot long sub and then someone sewing your butt shut. Current flows from negative to positive as most people are aware, the ground wire is the most important wire there is, make sure that it is done properly and not the assumed correct way.

Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
auex 
Platinum - Posts: 5,041
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Joined: December 23, 2002
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: February 01, 2005 at 5:53 PM / IP Logged  
This thread is starting to get annoying.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO TROUBLE SHOOT YOUR PROBLEM SO FAR???
And everyone is forgetting about all four of the brothers father. He is the one that takes the car out to the desert and blows it up.
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wayland1985 
Silver - Posts: 353
Silver spacespace
Joined: December 31, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: February 01, 2005 at 10:21 PM / IP Logged  

This Is starting to get annoying.... But hey....I'lll do as you say...

1.  I have a second ground going from the alternator to the battery to the firewall in 2 gauge wire.  The stock chassis ground ( in my case alternator is bolted to engine block which is bolted to the chassis, with a ground strap to the body).  I figured I'd get a better ground to the firewall,  since the entire body is welded together.   I was told since that the rubber bushings that bolt the body to the chassis don't provide a solid ground.
2.  The Ground spot I chose is completely bare of paint.  I used a power drill and a wire brush to scrape off the area, and remove all paint and primer. 
3.  The Vehicle's stock wiring has all been upgraded to 2 gauge.  (the new alternator is 2 feet away from the battery)  The stock ground 10 gauge is still in tact,  in addition to my new 2 gauge grounds.
4.  For trouble shooting I REMOVED THE 4 gauge from the  "COLLECTOR" block, and bolted it directly to the body.  The collector block had a 1/0 gauge wire to the body as well....  It seems to work considerably better with just the 4 gauge...

I know you'll be angry at this one....but I"m having a difficult time figuring out why my 4 gauge ground isn't good enough....  It's not making sense to me, and I can't see where you're coming from.... I guess you'll have to go slow on that part...   But this is how I'm interpreting my setup.  I have 1/0 gauge coming from my battery to the rear of my SUV.  At the rear I have a Fused distribution block  (it's a Scosche EFX ANL and AGU fuse distrobution block)   After flowing through a 150 amp ANL fuse,  the power is picked up by 4 gauge power wire which travels to my amplifier.  I see the 1/0 gauge as (now this is the best way i could put what i'm thinking into words) extending the battery's positive terminal to the rear of the truck.  I see the distribution block as the PICKUP for the battery's power.  Then I see my 4 gauge picking up power through this block,  and putting it into the amplifier.  I then see the ground as being my entire vehicle's body,  which is also an "EXTENSION" of the battery's negative terminal.

What is confusing me is how much of a difference can be made by putting 4 gauge wire into a "collector block" which has a 1/0 gauge ground to the body???    Does it carry more current than would having 4 gauge going directly into the body?  If anything, i see this setup as being just another "PICKUP" for grounding (a place where I can dump the ground from the amp).  Why can't I just "dump" right into the body itself?  Mind you,  my 4 gauge ground is only 2 feet long,  which is actually shorter than my 3 foot setup before ( 4 gauge into a block into 1/0 gauge into the ground)  What's the deal here? 
Plus,  I've always been told that having a ground more than 3 feet long is undesirable.
Please enlighten this poor college student!  I'd like to see things your way...  AND DON"T BE ANGRY IF I ASK MORE QUESTIONS!!! I'm JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S GOING ON!

~wayland
forbidden 
Platinum - Posts: 5,352
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: November 01, 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posted: February 02, 2005 at 12:17 PM / IP Logged  

Current flows from negative to positive. This makes the ground wire the most important wire there is. Think of it this way, even though the sheet metal of the car and the chassis are huge amounts of metal, they are full of impurities and they are for the most part not a continueous path. Meaning, most car bodies are unibody, meaning the sheet metal is glued together or spot welded only. This makes current transfer a problem. It is not about the amount of metal in the return to the battery, it is about the resistance through it.

In principle a ground wire of 3' or less is the assumed way to properly wire a ground wire. For most systems and vehicles it is not a problem. You must measure the ground return resistance to ensure a correct and proper ground. A correct and proper ground will have a resistance reading of 1/2 ohm or less. If it is higher than this, it is an improper ground and all sorts of issues can arise, especially once an amp starts to draw large amounts of current. A small problem at low volume becomes a large problem at high volume. 99.99% of installers never check the ground return resistance or even think to ask the customer about it. We just had a customer who refused to have his ground wire done properly in a new Mazda RX8. We took all precautions possible to ensure that his ground was as good as it could be based on this. His return reistance reading was 4.6 ohms. He has blown his 1001BD Rockford amp 4 times in 5months due to this reading. Change the wire to a direct 4 gauge line to the battery resulted in a .03 ohm reading, hook up a new temporary amp and voila, monster ouput and no issues.

Find out what your return resistance reading is. Use your meter on the resistance setting. Take one probe and attach it to the neg terminal on the battery. Take the other probe and attach it to the end of the ground wire before it goes into the amp. (disconnect from the amp). If the probes do not reach use a jumper wire to extend one of the probes. Measuer this line for any resistance reading and subtract it from the total.

Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
wayland1985 
Silver - Posts: 353
Silver spacespace
Joined: December 31, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: February 02, 2005 at 5:20 PM / IP Logged  

I think I may be cured.

After spending an hour probing the entire setup, I found a few issues. 
1.  The remote switch I was using was basically busted.  It was giving me big issues ( I wasn't using the Head unit's remote turn on, so that I could manually turn on and off the amplifier)
2.  The Scosche EFX fused distribution block is pretty much flawed.  The Screws are coming loose,  and the ANL fuse I had wasn't secure ( twiddling around the block yielded a huge spark....a pretty good sign something was wrong).  A few turns of the bolt holding the fuse in did the trick. 
               ----Anybody know any way to keep the bolts secure,  until I need to replace the fuse?
I checked the current running to the amplifier itself, and I had about 90 ohms at idle.
So now everything seems to be running pretty strong.   I'll check out the suggestion Forbidden made later this week,  so as not to blow the thing up.   Thanks for all the suggestions and tips. 

~wayland
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