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Tweeters in Db Drag


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kfr01 
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Posted: March 24, 2005 at 11:21 PM / IP Logged  

Poormanq45 wrote:
It's not quite that simple. There are alot of factors that determine exactly what the acoustical output increase will be.
Here's a good reading: Cone Area and Power Myths

That article is barely worth commenting about.  I'm frankly disappointed that you even thought it was worth mentioning.  

The author states these principles ARE true and then presents minutia limitations that knowledgeable readers are aware of anyway.  Good job, author of that article.  Way to use minutia variables to make newbs who are still learning believe that laws of physics are "myths."  His argument is akin to arguing that $1.00 as currency is a MYTH because the dollar is constantly fluctuating.  Does the dollar fluctuate?  Yes.  Are there an infinite number of variables that COULD affect the value of a dollar?  Yes.  Is it retarded to call the dollar MYTH currency because of these tiny variables and limitations?  Yes. 

I wonder if that author feels smart, pointing out the completely obvious to most people and confusing newbies...
Conclusion:  that was probably one of the most worthless articles I've ever read. 

Poormanq:  I find it funny that you even knew it was worthless.  Indeed, you site the article then contradict it in your analysis.

Look, everyone knows that there are limits to rules.  When limits to rules are very tiny and on the periphery, it only damages new user understanding to go around calling rules  "MYTHS."

sh*t, pretty much every physics course you'll ever take is based on the fact that we except the tiny and peripheral variables.

SO...

DOUBLE POWER = 3db INCREASE

DOUBLE CONE AREA = 3db INCREASE

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auex 
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Posted: March 24, 2005 at 11:32 PM / IP Logged  
But if you double the cone area technically you are changing the resistance and potentionally doubling the power. Don't you get a 6db gain???
Also, can we substitute the word myth with the word legend? How about heresay? I know I spelled that wrong.
Incase anyone is taking me seriously, don't. I just find this amusing.
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kfr01 
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Posted: March 24, 2005 at 11:49 PM / IP Logged  
Sigh. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just hate to see new users confused by worthless and sensational articles.
Just because I can't help it. ;-)
Yes. If you double the power and the cone area you achieve a 6db gain.
No, we can't substitute either of those words. Tweeters in Db Drag - Page 3 -- posted image. Tweeters in Db Drag - Page 3 -- posted image.
I move this thread be closed.
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Poormanq45 
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Posted: March 25, 2005 at 8:15 AM / IP Logged  
kfr01 wrote:
Poormanq: I find it funny that you even knew it was worthless. Indeed, you site the article then contradict it in your analysis.
Yeah, I thought sonething was a little off in that article.
Now, I'm thinking(ut ohh), that when you double the cone area, without doubling the power, you are halving the power to each driver which itself would cause a 3dB decrease, which would negate the 3dB increase from the doubled cone area.
^^This assumes that you wire the drivers to seperate channels and do not wire them in parallel to double the power.
Does that make sense?
jeffchilcott 
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Posted: March 25, 2005 at 11:32 AM / IP Logged  
going back to the tweeter issue.    I will try to dig up some pictures but I know team Irragi alternators, uses something like 200-300   5 1/4's in a old caddy at usaci almost every year.    I know they were doing burps at 90 some hz and were hitting very very close to 170db on the term lab mic.     Crazy things happen every year at Usaci finals.      
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kfr01 
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Posted: March 25, 2005 at 1:10 PM / IP Logged  

Poormanq45 wrote:
Now, I'm thinking(ut ohh), that when you double the cone area, without doubling the power, you are halving the power to each driver which itself would cause a 3dB decrease, which would negate the 3dB increase from the doubled cone area.
Does that make sense?

1) You are wrong.

2) While you spot a good issue, your characterization of the issue is wrong and oversimplified.

First, the part you're just plain wrong about. IF you were able to keep system power equal THEN the +3db would stand. It would not go to 0.

i.e.   Take 1 woofer being driven by 100w. 2 of the same woofers also being driven by 100w = 3db gain. Forget about wiring for now. It is a 3db gain. The rule takes the halving into acount. 3db gain. 3db gain. 3db gain. You were wrong about that part. Tweeters in Db Drag - Page 3 -- posted image.

I have to give you credit though, it was a good question. I do wish you would do a quick google search to arrive at answers before making me explain it though. :-) I know you're smart enough to absorb everything you find out there! Since you seem to ask enough of these questions, I highly recommend buying The Loudspeaker Cookbook by Vance Dickason. It has helped me quite a bit and I think you'll eat it up.

Here's the story. Doubling the cone area increases acoustic efficiency by 3db. Ok. End of that rule. Stop thinking about the basic rule. I hear those wheels turning. :-) Shut it off. Please. The double cone area rule is valid.

Ok, NOW, start to consider OTHER RULES or OTHER LIMITATIONS that could change the end result of adding another driver. Let me repeat it. These are OTHER RULES that could change the end result of adding another driver.

One of these OTHER RULES is related to system impedance. When adding a driver, "[combined impedance will be half of a single unit when connected in parallel, and twice the value of a single unit when connected in series. . . . Sensitivity will increase [ANOTHER] +3db for a parallel connection and -3db for a series connection compared to a single driver." Vance Dickason, The Loudspeaker Cookbook, page 40.

So, IF you bought two drivers AND wired them in series THEN the result would be a 0db gain.

Do you see how these are two separate issues?

But, IF you bought two drivers AND wired them in parallel THEN the result would be a 6db gain.

Now, if you have dual voice coils, multiple drivers, and a stable amplifier do you see why I insist on splitting this issue from the cone area issue? It gets complicated!

Other than the complication, however, they really are separate prongs of analysis that need to be addressed one at a time.

Note: Firefox is not very compatible with this forum software.
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hoaxs 
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Posted: March 26, 2005 at 8:01 PM / IP Logged  
so in conclusion,  it's possible for tweeter to compete and hit high dbs.  If this is so why don't i see it more often.
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hoaxs 
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Posted: March 26, 2005 at 8:04 PM / IP Logged  
and jeffchilcott thanks for keeping the question alive but can you burp tweeters @ 90hz isn't that to low for tweeters or am i wrong
 
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stevdart 
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Posted: March 26, 2005 at 8:06 PM / IP Logged  

hoaxs wrote:
If this is so why don't i see it more often.

Because dogs would be howling for miles around?

kfr01 
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Posted: March 26, 2005 at 9:08 PM / IP Logged  
You don't see it often for the reasons we identified on the very first page of this horrible thread.
1) It sounds horrible
2) They limit the measured frequencies at SPL events to bass.
No, you can't burp tweeters at 90hz. They will reach maximum excursion and break. You can burp 5.25" speakers, yes. Not tweeters.
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