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Not Enough Power? Or Knowledge?


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NicP 
Member - Posts: 29
Member spacespace
Joined: March 26, 2005
Location: Australia
Posted: July 03, 2005 at 11:38 PM / IP Logged  
if you are sensible there wont be a problem, you can just turn the gain down on the amp for the rear channels
Ive heard that the type r is far more superior than the type s subs, do you really need 2 subs? maybe you could investigate getting a single type r, maybe a 12"
boulderguy 
Silver - Posts: 510
Silver spacespace
Joined: April 17, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: July 04, 2005 at 12:25 AM / IP Logged  

First of all, your interior vehicle space really isn't very big - a single 10" or 12" would be fine IMO unless you're really looking for some bump.  I like the sound of a 10" better, you lose a tiny bit of the very bottom end, but in truth very few musical tracks have anything but secondary resonance that low and even fewer people's ears are good enough to hear it.  If you're going for purre musicality, stick with the 10", it's usually more accurate.  If you want to feel the power, go 12", it'll have more true output with the same wattage.

Second, and again IMO, placed head to head the JL subs are HANDS DOWN better than the Alpine, provided both are set up correctly in the right type enclosure.  I would go for a sealed box, no ports, but I'm partial to very tight, conservative & musical sound.  Ported will give you more volume, but it will tend to peak at a certain frequency & have more "boom."  You really need to listen to both to decide.  One of them will speak to you.  In reality, you can't go wrong with either Alpine or JL, but the JL Stealthboxes are very tough to beat if they make one for your truck.

Last, about power - how do you keep asking all the right questions?  Power ratings on speakers are tricky.  Here's the deal:  9 times out of 10 a speaker only blows because the amp is overdriven, not the speaker.  Remember Headroom, the peak output of an amp responding to music dynamics?  When that's depleted & the amp can't deliver enough power, it "clips," meaning (very oversimplified) it distorts.  It's these distortion spikes that will cook a speaker, not the clean power even if it's more than the speaker's rating allows.  I have a single 10" sub rated to 250 watts.  I run 400 to it, but it's very clean power & never overdriven.  4 years old, never had a prob.  My satellites are rated to 70wpc, I consistently send them 100+ (large class A amps), again no problems.  I largely disregard speaker wattage ratings because if it's respectably built, clean power up to sometimes twice the spkr rating ain't no problem.

Now the disclaimer - this isn't a license to get crazy with your gear, and I'm not responsible if you start a campfire in your car doors.  Just use your head & be sensible (don't run 1000w into a 500w sub, but 700's probably fine), and for God's sake turn it down if you hear distortion!  Otherwise your amp choices sound great. 

Enjoy it, if you get quality gear now it'll likely follow you car to car.  If you get the cheapo stuff, you'll hate it & replace it 8 times, ultimately spending way more than just doing it right the first time.  And when you install it, buy your wiring at Partsexpress.com for 1/3 the price of the shops.  That's another topic.

boulderguy 
Silver - Posts: 510
Silver spacespace
Joined: April 17, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: July 04, 2005 at 12:54 AM / IP Logged  

Hey, one other thing - reread your question (why didn't I do this in the first place?), that sub amp will send 500 watts into a single channel only.  You plug two subs into that channel, you'll cut the ohms in half (down to 2) and theoretically double the output to about 500w EACH, plus cut the headroom in half (that's bad).  That's 1000w of bass, enough to compete for most-ubsurdly-loud-truck award in your neighborhood.  It'll also completely overshadow the other speakers.

Go with a single 10 or 12 with that amp, it'll complement the other speakers well & you'll probably never max it out.  You could probably get away with the JL 250/1, tho you'll push that amp harder.

NicP 
Member - Posts: 29
Member spacespace
Joined: March 26, 2005
Location: Australia
Posted: July 04, 2005 at 3:20 AM / IP Logged  
that particular JL amp is rated at 500w from 1.5 ohms to 4 ohms, often when you half the load impedence the output doubles but not always, and not in this case
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: July 04, 2005 at 10:24 AM / IP Logged  
boulderguy wrote:
First of all, your interior vehicle space really isn't very big - a single 10" or 12" would be fine IMO unless you're really looking for some bump.  I like the sound of a 10" better, you lose a tiny bit of the very bottom end, but in truth very few musical tracks have anything but secondary resonance that low and even fewer people's ears are good enough to hear it.  If you're going for purre musicality, stick with the 10", it's usually more accurate.  If you want to feel the power, go 12", it'll have more true output with the same wattage.
Yes, I agreee that on sub is USUALLY plenty for a car, however, in the rest of your statement, there is FAR too much of a generalization to be even CLOSE to the truth. I was using an Eclipse Ti10, on the Eclipse DA7232, and it went a good half octave deeper than the Ti12 I "upgraded" to. Both boxes were optimal sealed designs for the WOOFER ACTUALLY INSTALLED, not based on Eclipse's claims of the production run's specs... How did I get these numbers to build the box? Both of the woofers were taken to my engineer friend at Harman, in Northridge, where he put them on the Klippel machine (a very expensive and accurate loudspeaker testing machine, alongside the DUMAX system, also very highly regarded), and we got the EXACT specifications for those drivers. Also, efficiency determines how loud a woofer will play, not how big the diaphragm is.
All I am saying, is that it depends COMPLETELY on the specifications of the driver, as to whether a 10" or 12" driver will play deeper or louder... I have seen an 8 inch driver play deeper with more output than some 15 inch drivers.
Also, I have many CDs in my collection that have VERY HIGH levels of sub- 25 to 28Hz fundamentals - not harmonics, I promise you... Check out Alphaville's "Dangerous Places" (this one's a tweeter-eater too, so be careful), Enya's "Longships", most any track from "It Came From Outer Bass". All three of those selections/tracks contain high-level fundamentals as low as 18Hz... And EXCEPTIONALLY clean recordings too, I might add. They WILL beat a vented woofer to DEATH...
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
boulderguy 
Silver - Posts: 510
Silver spacespace
Joined: April 17, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: July 04, 2005 at 12:56 PM / IP Logged  

See that, anytime time you boil down complex subjects into a paragraph, you're bound to tick someone off.   Of course it's a generalization.  And of course you & everyone else has a personal story where the rules of *What's Typical* just don't apply.  The idea here was to make a lot of info digestable & not overwhelming.  A 12" moves more air than a 10", and therefore *usually* has more output.

And the only instrument I know that drops below 40 hz with a fundamental is a huge pipe organ.  What are those recordings using?  Particularly Alphaville? 

bpensak 
Member - Posts: 8
Member spacespace
Joined: January 01, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: July 04, 2005 at 1:03 PM / IP Logged  

Well here's what I believe I'm gonna run at this time. The posts have been good to me (thanks all for the advice):

Tell me what you think; I'm looking for some opinions on the final call before I spend the bucks.

JL Audio 300/4 to Push the Door Speakers (75w RMS @ 4 @ 1.5ohm to 4ohm 11V-14.5v)

 - (Front) Alpine Type R 6-1/2" Components (70w RMS @ 4ohms, Peak 350w)
 - (Rear) Alpine Type R 6-1/2” Coaxials (60w RMS @ 4ohms, Peak 250w)

JL Audio 250/1 to Push the Sub (250w RMS @ 1 @ 1.5ohm to 4ohm 11V-14.5V)

 - Single JL Audio 10” 4ohm 10W3v2-4 (300w Continuous) – Requires 0.60 to 0.90 cu.ft. Enclosed
    Mounting Depth of 5.75”
 - http://www.subthump.com/gmcrewamp.htm
   Single 10” Down-Fire Configured Sub Enclosure (0.60 cu.ft.) – Mounting Depth 5.5” or 6” with Spacer

This just brought up another speed bump/question. My head unit only has two preouts, front & rear. Once I add the sub & amp, how am I going to get the input for it? The JL 250/1 does have a preout on it for the next amp. My Alpine head unit says I can change the settings to leave the front preouts unaffected by the fader, so would I run the front preout rca to the sub amp, then from the sub amp preout to the front channel input on the 4 channel amp? And run the rear channel preout from the HU directly to the rear channel on the 4 channel. Sounds right to me, but need advice (as always). I don’t want to upgrade the HU at this point, I’m working up to a flip-out DVD multimedia player, so don’t want to cough up money for a new HU just yet.

I think I almost got it. Maybe.

Not Enough Power? Or Knowledge? - Page 2 -- posted image.

haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: July 04, 2005 at 2:03 PM / IP Logged  
boulderguy wrote:
See that, anytime time you boil down complex subjects into a paragraph, you're bound to tick someone off.   Of course it's a generalization. And of course you & everyone else has a personal story where the rules of *What's Typical* just don't apply. The idea here was to make a lot of info digestable & not overwhelming. A 12" moves more air than a 10", and therefore *usually* has more output.
First, I was not trying to "tick somebody off" nor was I ticked off... I was not even saying you were completely wrong, but again with the generalizations. A 12 inch woofer will not necessarily move more air than a 10 inch woofer, and even if it DID move more air in every situation, that alone would NOT make it louder. Volume of air displaced is NOT what makes output. Rate of change is what makes output - how FAST can the woofer change direction from in to out or vice-versa. This is where magnet size, magnet strength, moving mass, voicecoil inductance all come into play. NOT the size of the diaphragm.
If the statements you are making were fast and true, then you would need thousands of watts to make a small diaphragm like a tweeter make as much output as an 18 inch woofer - and that does not happen, does it? I never said that "what's typical" does not apply, but I did say that in audio you CANNOT make generalizations like those...
boulderguy wrote:
And the only instrument I know that drops below 40 hz with a fundamental is a huge pipe organ. What are those recordings using? Particularly Alphaville?
Here is a handy little chart to refer to when making statements like this... The piano's lowest note is 28Hz... (27.5Hz, actually) almost a full octave BELOW where you thought it cut off... Here's another, with a realtive loudness chart.
As far as the questions regarding what types of instruments - Ok, I'll give you the Outer Bass stuff, it's all synthesized, so it's cheating. Enya? a 32 inch kettle drum. Alphaville? Don't know, but it really does not matter, as I have already proven your generalizations false... The fundamentals are there, and it is necessary for a woofer to move a lot of air to reproduce these fundamentals accurately, it is true, but a 12" will not always do the job better than a 10" or even an 8".
All I am saying is be careful with the generalizations. They are just that - general - and can EASILY be rebutted.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
boulderguy 
Silver - Posts: 510
Silver spacespace
Joined: April 17, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: July 04, 2005 at 2:34 PM / IP Logged  

About instruments below 40hz, that was actually a question, and the chart you gave was interesting - I've been educated today, thanks.

haemphyst wrote:
Don't know, but it really does not matter, as I have already proven your generalizations false.

No.  What you've proven is that my generalizations are not always true.  That's why they're general, not hard facts. 

You've also shown that some bonehead is always going to take things personally and make it a mission to disprove them, ultimately confusing the issue & defeating the purpose.  Who the hell uses the last four keys on a piano anyway?  And who plans their speakers around that? 

bpensak 
Member - Posts: 8
Member spacespace
Joined: January 01, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: July 04, 2005 at 2:46 PM / IP Logged  

Now that those issues are resolved, can someone send some advice my way on my last post? I understand I've had way more help than I probably should have, but let's get back on topic. Keep in mind everyone will have their own opinions and outlooks, and regardless, we are all here for the same, Car Audio Help! At least I know I am, I'm the newbie here!

I appreciate everyone's advice and words, I wouldn't know what to do without this site/forum. Heck, I thought I'd have a fight on my hands when I posted I was looking to stay with all Alpine, but people made some good suggestions and now I'm not cutting myself short! Opinions are good, and in this site several heads are better than one!

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