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Alternate alternator

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Mad Scientists 
Silver - Posts: 380
Silver spacespace
Joined: February 07, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: August 05, 2005 at 5:18 AM / IP Logged  

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=29007

'Intended for drag race applications only'

WRT your lever example.. to get 200 lbs to move with 2 lbs of input your distance traveled is what makes it happen.. the 2 lb side will travel much farther than the 200 lb side.

In the simplest terms, you want to get more power out then you're putting in.. and that's against the laws of physics. But don't let me stop you.. go ahead and try.

Jim

Masta N 
Member - Posts: 47
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Joined: March 15, 2002
Location: United States
Posted: August 05, 2005 at 7:54 AM / IP Logged  
You are absolutly correct about the distance traveled, that is where pulleys come into play. They allow you to get more power out that you put in. Well within the laws of physics...especially when converting the energy from one type(electrical), to another(mechanical), and running through force amplifiers(pulleys). A dc motor drawing power, and an alternator producing power work in different ways...A fact which you may not be considering. An alternator takes a force(pulley), converts it to high voltage, low amperage AC power. Then through a series of transformers, converts that "signal" to high current, low voltage DC power.
Mad Scientists 
Silver - Posts: 380
Silver spacespace
Joined: February 07, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: August 05, 2005 at 8:05 PM / IP Logged  

Masta N wrote:
You are absolutly correct about the distance traveled, that is where pulleys come into play. They allow you to get more power out that you put in. Well within the laws of physics...especially when converting the energy from one type(electrical), to another(mechanical), and running through force amplifiers(pulleys).

Let's look at this for a minute.. you have two pulleys.. a drive pulley and a driven pulley. The drive pulley has torque of 100 ft lbs, and an RPM of 1000 rpm. If the driven pulley is the same size, it will have 100 ft lbs of torque, and 1000 rpm. If you reduce the diameter of the driven pulley you will increase the RPM of the driven pulley, but decrease the torque. Increase the diameter of the driven pulley and you'll reduce the RPM, but increase the torque.

here's a calculator  http://www.phionline.com/calcrpm.htm

Here someone used a 1hp AC motor to turn an automotive alternator.. look at the size of the electric motor compared to the alternator.

http://theepicenter.com/tow052903.html

Masta N wrote:
A dc motor drawing power, and an alternator producing power work in different ways...A fact which you may not be considering. An alternator takes a force(pulley), converts it to high voltage, low amperage AC power. Then through a series of transformers, converts that "signal" to high current, low voltage DC power.

I wasn't aware of the transformer stage of alternators.. I had thought that there were diodes in there, but not transformers. Regardless of anything else, you're saying that it shouldn't be a problem to input 140 watts (14vdc @ 10a) into a motor generator device and output over 1400 watts (14vdc @100a).. right?

Jim

geepherder 
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Platinum spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: October 27, 2003
Posted: August 05, 2005 at 9:19 PM / IP Logged  
Alternators do produce AC which is then rectified to DC, but there is no transformer- per se.  It is not converted from high voltage low current AC to low voltage high current DC.
My ex once told me I have a perfect face for radio.
Masta N 
Member - Posts: 47
Member spacespace
Joined: March 15, 2002
Location: United States
Posted: August 05, 2005 at 10:32 PM / IP Logged  
So by the same logic, a supercharger is impossible(20 hp to produce well over 100)...regardless, Like I said in the beginning, this is an acedemic argument, which has not been debunked completly by anyone. The fact remains that the force needed to run a water pump is greater than the force needed to run an alternator, and this thing runs water pumps...period. How much force is neccessary to run an alternator?   
As for transformers in alternators, I used the wrong term.   
As I said this is acedemic, I have found a space to shoehorn my alt and run it conventionaly. Thanks for all the "help"...condescending as it is.
Mad Scientists 
Silver - Posts: 380
Silver spacespace
Joined: February 07, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: August 06, 2005 at 12:24 PM / IP Logged  

You came here looking for help..  remember this line?

"Of course there must be a flaw in my logic on this idea, so I turn to you for thoughts...as well as constuctive criticism"

Condescending?.. wasn't meant to be, but sometimes the truth hurts I guess. Try to keep an open mind.

To continue answering your questions, an alternator requires 1-3hp to operate; depends on the rated output of the alternator... One of the links I provided for you shows a 1hp electric motor connected to an alternator.. that same page also shows a 3.5hp gas engine hooked to an alternator. The electric motor for the water pump is a fractional hp motor.. considering that the current draw is listed at 8 amps, I'd say it's around a 1/10 hp motor or less. Does it flow enough to equal an engine driven water pump?.. nope. Is it designed to be run continuously?.. nope. It's designed for intermittant use on a drag race engine.

Also, please note that my 'help' included posting links to the water pump drives, the install instructions, and links to what others have done. I've suggested that you not take my word on it, but to try it yourself. If you build it, I've got all the test gear to measure input/output power.. consider this an invitation; not limited to only you, but anyone interested in trying out a theory. I don't have an SPL meter or I would offer to test whether a cap really makes a difference or not.

I don't generally answer audio questions.. it's not my field. Mechanics and electronics?.. I know a little. And I try to learn more each day.

Jim

Masta N 
Member - Posts: 47
Member spacespace
Joined: March 15, 2002
Location: United States
Posted: August 06, 2005 at 5:46 PM / IP Logged  
By hammering the perpetual power issue, which the idea was not, you became condecending in my book, perhaps I mistook your position. As for the hp requirements, I know that changing the size(I don't remember which way...I would have to examine my trucks pulleys) of the alternator gains an average of 11-15 hp. The drive doodad for the water pump advertises a 20 hp gain. This leads me to belive an alternator requires less power to turn. I am a mechanic, as well as a audio, security, and cellular tech, So I know a little about these things as well. The issue is now mute, and perhaps absurd, for I no longer need a remote mounted alt to run my system.
On this line of thought, Does anyone here suggest running the two alternators together, or on different curcuits...i.e the factory to run the truck, and the second isolated from the factory system charging the aux batterys? Does it matter? Pros and cons of each?
Mad Scientists 
Silver - Posts: 380
Silver spacespace
Joined: February 07, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: August 06, 2005 at 8:37 PM / IP Logged  

Masta N wrote:
By hammering the perpetual power issue, which the idea was not, you became condecending in my book, perhaps I mistook your position. As for the hp requirements, I know that changing the size(I don't remember which way...I would have to examine my trucks pulleys) of the alternator gains an average of 11-15 hp. The drive doodad for the water pump advertises a 20 hp gain. This leads me to belive an alternator requires less power to turn. I am a mechanic, as well as a audio, security, and cellular tech, So I know a little about these things as well. The issue is now mute, and perhaps absurd, for I no longer need a remote mounted alt to run my system.

Consider this.. think of all the posts you see here at the12volt about not having an alternator fit their particular car, or how much one for their car is, or that there's no room for it under the hood. What if you had a system that only required 8 amps to operate, was able to use the most inexpensive HO alternator (because the only concern is if the belt fits) and fits in their trunk? No more running big gauge wire from the front to the rear..

Want to listen to your radio with the engine off?.. no problem. Tired with alternator output going down at engine idle? Not a concern anymore. Think of the uses outside car audio.. camping, ham radio, anything that needs 12v. How about a setup wired with an inverter?.. now you have 120vac.

How many people here would be interested in such a setup?

Masta N wrote:
On this line of thought, Does anyone here suggest running the two alternators together, or on different curcuits...i.e the factory to run the truck, and the second isolated from the factory system charging the aux batterys? Does it matter? Pros and cons of each?

Check to see how Ford wires their dual alternator setups.. perhaps one regulator running both alternators. If everything running from each battery was isolated from each other I don't think there'd be a problem.. but I would be concerned with voltage differences between the two charging systems being applied to something running off both systems.

Jim

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