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Advanced Front Speaker Systems How-to


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kryptonitewhite 
Member - Posts: 4
Member spacespace
Joined: September 09, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: September 09, 2005 at 5:14 AM / IP Logged  
Steven Kephart wrote:

To do a 3-way set you will need a low pass for the midbass, band pass for the midrange, and high pass for the tweeter.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Would you want a bandpass for the midbass as well to prevent beaming, modes, and distortion up high? Also more power handling from concentrating it's input bandwidth?

kryptonitewhite 
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Member spacespace
Joined: September 09, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: September 09, 2005 at 5:27 AM / IP Logged  
DYohn wrote:

Excellent thread.  Here's another adddition for people designing such a system: installing a 3-way component set (or creating one as below) actually creates a net four-way system in your vehicle, with the following basic crossovers points:

1) The bottom three or so octaves are handled by the subwoofer, requiring a low-pass crossover at about 80 Hz.

2) The next 1.5 to 2 octaves (upper bass) are handled by the woofer (or mid-woofer) of the three-way.  This requires a bandpass crossover between the sub cross at 80Hz (high pass) and the upper cross at somewhere between 200 and 300 Hz (low pass.)  In some systems this crossover is another full octave higher on the order of 600-700Hz.

3) The next few octaves are handled by the mid-range.  This is another band-pass crossover between the higher point of the mid-woofer (200 to 800 Hz high pass) and the crossover to the tweeter, usually around 3500 Hz (low pass.)  Some tweeters play lower into the 1500 Hz range.

4)  The highest frequencies are handled by the tweeter and this speaker requires a high-pass crossover at the same frequency as the low-pass of the midrange.

In my car, I use a combination of electronic and passive crossovers.  I use a 24 db/octave electronic low pass for the subwoofer and an 18db/octave electronic bandpass for my midwoofer.  My midrange uses an 18 db/oct electronic high-pass, but then the crossover to the tweeter is passive.  These are the crossovers supplied with my 2-way component sets (18 db/oct @ 1700 Hz).  I created this 4-way system to suit my tastes, adding a mid-woofer between 80 Hz and 240 Hz in kick panels since I felt the woofer of my component set lacked detail in the lower region.

More ideas soon.  Thanks for starting this Steven!

I am affraid to go both active and passive.  Are there any known effects from this?

Steven Kephart 
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Posted: September 09, 2005 at 12:50 PM / IP Logged  
kryptonitewhite wrote:

Would you recommend going Extremis/Tweeter, as the Extremis goes to 3K extremely well, and matching it with a tweet that can get down to 2.5 easily,

That's how I plan on going.  Just be sure you can fit the Extremis.  It does have a 3.5" mounting depth.  That's one of the downfalls of high excursion.

kryptonitewhite wrote:

Extremis/FR125?  If those FRs go to 22kHz the way they are saying...but would you have to cross the FRs over around 2-4kHz to avoid them both putting out the same band of frequencies?

The FR's will play up that high on axis.  But keep in mind that they are a 4" driver and will start to beam much lower.  However I have a lot of experience with the previous generation WR 125's as they are temporarily acting as my center channel (no crossover or tweeter, just the driver run directly off the receiver channel).  I have been very amazed at how little you notice is lost up that high.  These start to roll off at 15k on axis, and you really have to pay attention to notice the loss. 

So, which one is the better choice (tweeter or FR)?  Well the advantage the FR would have is a better low frequency extention.  However since standard tweeters won't have a problem playing down to match up with the extremis, this advantage is moot.  I'd probably recommend running tweeters instead.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

[/QUOTE]
Steven Kephart 
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Posted: September 09, 2005 at 12:57 PM / IP Logged  
kryptonitewhite wrote:
Steven Kephart wrote:

Ok, then I will try to give you what I believe are the advantages and disadvantages of a 3-way system.

Advantages: A 3-way system has more speakers producing the same band of frequencies.  Because of this each speaker is producing a smaller bandwidth.  This allows you to generally reach higher output levels with the system.  Remember what I said in the first post about running speaker lower will reduce their peak output.  You also have more flexibility on which band of frequencies each speaker plays, so you can use each speaker in it's smoothest frequency production range.  This results in a smoother natural frequency response in the end design.  The above also allows you to have a little more flexibility in the speakers you can choose because you don't need them to have good response over a larger bandwidth.  And finally, the smaller band of frequencies per driver allows you not to worry about playing up into frequencies where the speakers are going to beam.  This allows for a little better tonal balance at different axis points.

Disadvantages:  The installation process is greatly complicated.  Now instead of a mid and tweet, you have to fit 3 speakers in there.  Real estate in vehicles is already at a premium, so trying to fit another speaker per side greatly increases the difficulty.  Also, the system design process is greatly complicated.  For instance, designing passive crossovers is a magnitude more difficult.  Think of a 2-way passive crossover as trying to balance a nickel on it's edge.  Now think of a 3-way passive crossover like trying to stack a second nickel on top of the first, it also balanced on it's edge. 

In my experience, the advantages audibly are very small.  I definitely don't think it is worth all the extra effort.  If you want midbass, then I highly suggest going with the speakers I suggested earlier.  You would be hard pressed to find a midbass speaker with more displacement than they have.  Plus they have a good response up to 5 kHz.  We cut them off at 3k because that's where they start to beam at.  We have a tremendous amount of information on those speakers at our website including waterfall plots, THD measurements at a very high level, BL curve, and a spectral contamination graph.  Here's the link: http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/ExtremisMidwoofers.htm

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

With 3-way being better because you can focus more on a specific bandwidth per driver, that would mean the FR125 would be too close to the desired bandwidth of the Extremis, making a tweeter a better idea? Or no?

Also, would beaming become an issue running the FR125 too high, making a 2-way tweeter application a better idea?

Yes on both accounts.  Now the FR does have a smoother response between 1k and 5k, which is why the 3 way sets (the LCR) using  them have smoother responses.  But to be honest, the audible differences IMO are so small they definitely aren't worth it.  That's why I just run the two-way tower set at home.  But then I don't have "golden ears" like some people do.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Steven Kephart 
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Posted: September 09, 2005 at 1:03 PM / IP Logged  
kryptonitewhite wrote:
Steven Kephart wrote:

To do a 3-way set you will need a low pass for the midbass, band pass for the midrange, and high pass for the tweeter.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Would you want a bandpass for the midbass as well to prevent beaming, modes, and distortion up high? Also more power handling from concentrating it's input bandwidth?

It depends on the midbass you are using.  If it can handle lower frequencies without a problem, then there shouldn't be any added distortion from pushing the driver too far.  But beaming is an upper frequency issue, and modes don't really happen in the bass frequencies enough to be an issue.  So a high pass filter won't necessarily help them.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

footbaldd 
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Copper spacespace
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Posted: September 14, 2005 at 3:47 PM / IP Logged  
Steven, I am getting ready to put some components (still deciding on equiptment) in my 90 integra soon and am having a little trouble deciding on the mounting location for my tweeters. i see a lot of people mount on the top of the door or in the mirror sails, but it seems like it would be best to keeping it close to the midrange. If you could i would greatly appreciate your opinion on this.
Poormanq45 
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Joined: October 27, 2004
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Posted: September 14, 2005 at 5:24 PM / IP Logged  

Are you making custom kick panels, or just using the stock mounting location for the midbass driver?

If you're making custom kicks then I'd recommend that you keep the tweeter as close as possible to the other driver.

Hell, even if you're not making custom kicks i'd recommend keeping the drivers close.  Most component sets that I've seen supply you with two mounts for the tweeter, 1 flush mount, and the other an angled mount.  Use the angled mount and try to place the tweeter so that it faces towards the passenger's/driver's ears.

footbaldd 
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Posted: September 14, 2005 at 7:26 PM / IP Logged  
I plan to have the midbass in the stock location with the tweeter underneith the grill aimed towards the opposite side (driver's tweeter facing passenger ect), but I want some other opinions before I do anything.
Steven Kephart 
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Posted: September 14, 2005 at 9:55 PM / IP Logged  

footbaldd wrote:
Steven, I am getting ready to put some components (still deciding on equiptment) in my 90 integra soon and am having a little trouble deciding on the mounting location for my tweeters. i see a lot of people mount on the top of the door or in the mirror sails, but it seems like it would be best to keeping it close to the midrange. If you could i would greatly appreciate your opinion on this.

You have a 90 Integra?  That's awesome since that's what I drive as well.  Right now I have my tweeters temporarily mounted on the grills. Try using double sided tape and different locations until you find a spot that sounds best to you.  Although underneath the grills should be just fine.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

footbaldd 
Copper - Posts: 84
Copper spacespace
Joined: May 10, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: September 15, 2005 at 3:39 PM / IP Logged  
Yea I see you every once and a while on g2ic. Love the center console enclosure. I saw you mentioned you are using Extremis up front; have you had any problems with their mounting depth? Tonight I am going to cut some 3/4in mdf rings, but I dont think that much more will fit without hitting the grill.
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