the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
icon

DVC - change RMS?


Post ReplyPost New Topic
< Prev Topic Next Topic >
bumpingjeep 
Copper - Posts: 149
Copper spacespace
Joined: September 12, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: October 31, 2005 at 7:22 AM / IP Logged  

stevdart is my hero...that is the best i have ever heard that explained

1987 Huffy...spinners...two 15's custom mounted to the back
tcbturbosux 
Copper - Posts: 69
Copper spacespace
Joined: October 21, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: October 31, 2005 at 9:20 AM / IP Logged  

Gene Norvel is the Vice Pres. of Power Acoustik. and does most of the designs.

Very nice man...met him in okla. @ Petra show.

Uncle Gumby
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: October 31, 2005 at 11:30 AM / IP Logged  
stevdart wrote:
Because there is a slight difference. When you link two speakers in series, the first speaker receiving signal will have a slightly higher level of input than the second speaker which is last to get it. At the same time, when you link the two coils of one driver in series the same applies.
Dude, I have never said you were wrong before, but I have to this time. "That is wrong." There are NO, and cannot be ANY, differences whatsoever...
Number one: The signal is an AC signal, so for one half of the waveform, the current pushes from one direction, (electrically, one woofer will get the current "first") and the other half of the waveform, it pushes from the other direction (electrically, the other woofer will get the current "first")... if it even matters at all - which it doesn't. Read on.
Number two: ANY TIME EQUAL RESISTANCES ARE WIRED IN SERIES, THE VOLTAGE DROP ACROSS THEM IS IDENTICAL. This is basic Ohm's Law, man... And it will hold true whether you have two woofers or two HUNDRED woofers. You know this stuff... IF there are differences in the voltage drop across the voicecoils, it is not because "one of them is connected first", it is because there is a difference in the voice coils... Because the voltage drop is the same, AND in AC presentation, there cannot be any difference in the output of the drivers, based specifically on where they are in the electrical chain.
Number three: There have been discussions on this board, referencing Dan Wiggins, that even if voice coils are wire 180 degrees out of phase from one another, there will be NO danger of damaging the voice coils whatsoever, so I am not really certain what you were trying to say with the last line. Because number one and two are true, and number three applies, your last line will have nothing to do with anything, even if it meant something.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
stevdart 
Platinum - Posts: 5,816
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: October 31, 2005 at 6:28 PM / IP Logged  

Actually, Dave, you've corrected me before a couple of times...but that's how I learn things.  I have a pornographic memory so you know I don't forget much of what I read.  Close to two years ago I read through the JL help info and tutorials, including the info reprinted below:

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=161

Please note that when wiring multiple drivers it is recommended that series connections between drivers be avoided at all costs. This does not include series connections made between voice coils on the same driver. For more information, please consult our dual voice coil tutorial.  Additionally, if you have an idea for a wiring configuration and you do not see it here, chances are you should re-think its implementation (in other words, don't do it). You will more than likely find that the results will be less than optimal.

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=163

...Because all driver-to-driver wiring should be done in parallel and two 8 ohm drivers wired in parallel will yield a 4 ohm final impedance.

 
It is far less desirable to make subwoofer to subwoofer connections in series. Because of slight and unavoidable differences between speakers and because of the high likelihood of uneven loading between different speakers in a car, there will be slight differences in the mechanical behavior of the two speakers in series. These differences in movement result in induced voltage (called back EMF) being created by the speakers across the series connection. This effect causes a problem when two speakers which behave differently are connected in series because the speakers can modulate each other (cause each other to move), resulting in distortion. The problem becomes more serious as more speakers are connected in series.

A good experiment to show the effect of back EMF is the following: connect four speakers in series and short the positive and negative input leads of the series circuit. Push down on one cone with your hand; you will notice that the three other speakers will move in the opposite direction of the one you are pushing. Now, reconnect the speakers in parallel, short the inputs and push down on one cone. The speakers will not modulate each other because each one is shorted directly.

Back EMF modulation is not a concern when the voice coils of a dual voice coil speaker are wired n series to each other because the coils are physically coupled on one moving mass. Therefore, they cannot possibly modulate each other because they cannot move independently.

My memory didn't serve me as well as I wanted, though, with my statement:  At the same time, when you link the two coils of one driver in series the same applies.  What is the priority, then? ...if this info is the basis for what I wrote.  And I didn't remember where I saw this info, so I didn't review the alleged reason when I answered the post here this morning...thus I winged it best as I could.  Oh well...I'll remember all this the next time the subject comes up, including your argument.

Since I read this I have noticed that wiring diagrams always favor series/parallel, where they certainly could show the wiring the other way instead.  And I have read nothing from any of our resident experts, including you Dave, that specifically addressed this question.  So I've had this impression all this time.  I'll have to keep an eye out for pros and cons on the subject.  And now I presume you'll get onto JL right away and let them know of their error?   ;)

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: October 31, 2005 at 7:39 PM / IP Logged  
Ok, I like the argument...
POWER WISE, it cannot matter, and this is where I stand. The power dissipated across the drivers will be identical, either way it is done, and both drivers will dissipate 50% of the total power provided. I read both of those pages, and while most of what is said there is, indeed sound, and to most extents, true, I still maintain that it won't matter.
The back EMF? OK, I'll give ya that, 'cause I was overlooking that aspect. Having never done their experiment, (I will soon though) I cannot speak to the effectiveness of the results obtained.
Most diagrams do indeed favor the series/parallel wiring diagram, but I cannot believe it is for any kind of performance advantage. When wiring DVC woofers, it is usually EASIER to wire the coils in series, then in parallel, I think this is why we see that type of wiring scheme most often.
Potentially, given the new light of back-EMF, but ONLY for back-EMF, there may be some differences between series/parallel, and parallel/series wiring. Acoustically, I don't think there would be any difference, or if there is, very little difference.
Between your pornographic memory, and my photostatic remembery, we oughta know everything by now, eh? I always said I had a photographic memory, I just sometimes forget to load the film!
Oh, and I have already told JL they were wrong... they took it in the proper spirit DVC - change RMS? - Page 2 -- posted image.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
stevdart 
Platinum - Posts: 5,816
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: October 31, 2005 at 8:45 PM / IP Logged  

My fault for relaying that bit of information so poorly.  I knew the basis but not the real reason, and it probably would have resulted in a different response from you, Dave, had I waited until I had enough time to find the backup source before answering.  "Winging it" often puts me in the hot seat, but this time I made hero status!  :)

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
geepherder 
Platinum - Posts: 3,668
Platinum spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: October 27, 2003
Posted: October 31, 2005 at 8:50 PM / IP Logged  
Okay, good then.  I thought I was going to have to step in and correct you Steve, but it looks like it's been handled.
My ex once told me I have a perfect face for radio.
Page of 2

Sorry, you can NOT post a reply.
This topic is closed.

  Printable version Printable version Post ReplyPost New Topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

  •  
Search the12volt.com
Follow the12volt.com Follow the12volt.com on Facebook
Tuesday, April 16, 2024 • Copyright © 1999-2024 the12volt.com, All Rights Reserved Privacy Policy & Use of Cookies
Disclaimer: *All information on this site ( the12volt.com ) is provided "as is" without any warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including but not limited to fitness for a particular use. Any user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and use of this information. Please verify all wire colors and diagrams before applying any information.

Secured by Sectigo
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
Support the12volt.com
Top
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer