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Sony Copy Protected CDs - Too Far


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russ lund 
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Posted: November 04, 2005 at 10:15 AM / IP Logged  

I have gotten around copy protection on cd's by "

-edit by Dyohn -

BigDog
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: November 04, 2005 at 10:42 AM / IP Logged  

Look, owners of intellectual property have every right to copy protect it to help protect themselves from piracy and loss of revenue.  Do you like working for free?  Neither do the artists, producers and distributors who sell music and videos. 

Breaking copy protection schemes and producing duplicates of copy written material is a violation of US federal law and international copyright law, and no it does not have to be for commercial purposes.

This forum will not promote breaking the law.  Please do not post your methods, schemes, or instructions about how to do so.  Discussing the issue is fine, but not posting how-tos for thieves.

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Velocity Motors 
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Posted: November 04, 2005 at 10:49 AM / IP Logged  
Well put and fully supporting you Dyohn
Jeff
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kfr01 
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Posted: November 04, 2005 at 5:54 PM / IP Logged  

Yikes.  DYohn.  I am sad to see you censoring this.  Nothing outlaws, to my knowledge, TALKING ABOUT how to get around copy protection schemes yet, has it? 

If so, PLEASE link me to this court opinion or statute.  The dcss case?  Please.  the12volt.com is hardly 2600:  Hacker's Quarterly.  The solution russ lund posted is quite unlike the links to the actual software of the dcss case. 

What, the DMCA you say?  See the relevant portions here:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/1201.html

Sure, it says:

(a)(1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

However, it also says:

(c) Other Rights, Etc., Not Affected. - (1) Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title.   (2) Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish vicarious or contributory liability for copyright infringement in connection with any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof.   (4) Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish any rights of free speech or the press for activities using consumer electronics, telecommunications, or computing products.

(f) Reverse Engineering. - (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.

The DMCA also provides - BUT NOTICE THE BOLDED LIMITATIONS!

(b) Additional Violations. - (1) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that - (A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof;  (B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof; or (C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof.

See also: 

§ 1204. Criminal Offenses and Penalties   (a) In general.--Any person who violates section 1201 or 1202 willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DYohn, sadly, I am not supporting you at all on this.  Not all copying is illegal.  Fair use is still arguably alive.  Free speech is sure as sh*h still alive.  As EVEN THE DMCA acknowledges, NOT ALL COPYRIGHT PROTECTION CIRCUMVENTION is ILLEGAL.  Not everyone that circumvents copyright is a thief!  It deeply saddens me to see the PUBLIC CONSUMERS (people on this forum) self censoring like this.  Why not put the BURDEN on the movie companies to sue Russ Lund?  Why not put the BURDEN on the DOJ to try to arrest everyone that wants to exercise their fair use rights? 

The sad thing is that self-censorship is exactly what the companies that lobbied for the DMCA want.  They want to SCARE us into not talking about it.  They want to SCARE us into suppressing information. 

Their cause, when indirectly helped and supported even by intelligent people such as DYohn, is stronger than I thought.  You, DYohn, Velocity Motors, dear sirs, are doing their work for them.   The Car Audio community should be deeply concerned. 

This day saddens me. 

Free speech?  Fair use?  Civil disobedience?  Innocent until proven guilty?  Right to trial? 

Sad.

I love this site and you do an excellent job Moderating, DYohn and Velocity, but I strongly disagree with your views on this topic.

You are so concerned about the media conglomerates and artists.  Yes, they have a right to TRY to enforce their IP.  Why are you trying to do it for them? They aren't losing any money when I buy over $1,000 of CDs a year and rip a few to FLAC.  Am I a thief because I use my original cd as a backup? 

The above does not constitute legal advice.   Again, the above does not constitute legal advice.  I am not an attorney.  I am a concerned American. 

New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
stevdart 
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Posted: November 04, 2005 at 7:02 PM / IP Logged  

kfr01, puh-leeze...that's dramatic.  This is a car audio forum, and the mods and admin have discretionary privileges.  You know that.  And your personal case,  "They aren't losing any money when I buy over $1,000 of CDs a year and rip a few to FLAC"  is, as you are well aware, not the norm. 

By the way, you are not an attorney but you are studying to become one.  "ACLU, here I come!"

Just ribbing, but the size of your soapbox made me have to remark.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
DYohn 
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Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: November 04, 2005 at 9:25 PM / IP Logged  

Nothing outlaws talking about them except for the self-imposed restrictions of this forum.  Discuss the issue, that's fine.  Post how-to ideas or instructions, they will get deleted and memberships may be revoked if it continues.  Sorry, I have strong opinions about copyright issues and feel they need to be protected.  It's no different than our rules to help discourage car stereo thieves by not allowing posting of head unit security codes.

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kfr01 
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Posted: November 04, 2005 at 11:27 PM / IP Logged  
I agree. My post was dramatic. I meant it to be. A soapbox? Sure, that too. I felt like the thievery language was too strong, given the respect DYohn has on this forum, and that it deserved a strong response.
I believe this issue is MUCH different than the car stereo thief issue. Why? Nevermind. You don't want to hear it.
Please close this thread I started. Lets get back to discussing real issues that really matter to the car audio community....
Which subwoofer should I buy next?
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: November 05, 2005 at 9:54 AM / IP Logged  

No need to close this thread.  It is a good discussion.  Here's a post I wrote on another forum in response to a question about Warez and file sharing that seems appropriate to repost:

****

A few points.  First, when you purchase or rent a CD, DVD, computer software, book, magazine, newspaper, toy, game, paper, work of art, mechanical design, invention, or any other item upon which has been granted a copyright, patent, trademark, registration mark or any similar protection, you do not own it.  You only own the medium into which the content has been encoded, stored, published, etc.  You may NOT,  "use it as you see fit" if that means copying and distributing, using it in another creation, or claiming it as your own, except for uses covered by the "fair use" doctrine.  Doing so, whether any monetary gains result or not, is a violation of the law.

Granted, usually only those making monetary gains are actually prosecuted, but recent trends (such as successful prosecution of illegal file sharing and individual downloading of pirated music) indicate the monetary motivation is less important.  The law is written so that "depriving the copyright holder of income" is all it takes.  Under that interpretation, making any copy of any work could be considered a violation.

"Fair use" does not mean you can copy content for whatever use you desire.  Legally, "the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."  The law remains fairly ambiguous on what is and is not fair use, however, so each challenge generally goes to the courts.

In Sony v. Universal City Studios; the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "any individual may reproduce a copyrighted work for a 'fair use;' the copyright owner does not possess the exclusive right to such a use."  This led to the idea of a "personal use" right under fair use.

The fair use doctrine allows an individual to make a copy of their lawfully obtained copyrighted work for their own personal use. Allowing people to make a copy for personal use provides for "enhanced consumer convenience through legitimate and lawful copying. It can also enlarge the exploitable market for the rights holders." The fair use privilege's personal use right is what allows an individual to make a backup copy of their computer software or music and video content as a defense against future media failure.

Personal use also permits fans to make "mix tapes" or compilations of their favorite songs from their own personal music collection or off the radio for "their own personal enjoyment in a more convenient format," also called "format shifting." Another example of acceptable personal use copying of a copyrighted work is "time-shifting," or the recording of a copyrighted program to enjoy at a later and more convenient time.

This has been expanded to include the right and ability to copy ones own music collection onto their own computer storage device and create customized play lists for their own personal use and enjoyment of their music.

It is important to note that while consumers have the right to listen to their own music collection for their own personal use, they do not have the legal right to make their music collections available to others by uploading them onto the Internet for public downloading, or to share them and give them away to others.  I am guilty of violating this idea.  :)

"Warez" is and always has been illegal in any form, unless royalties are paid to the publishers.  It is stealing, plain and simple.  Facilitating it is a crime, as is downloading or using pirated software.  Warez is blatant and obvious.  You should be ashamed.  :)  But there are more subtle issues.

The DMCA, Section 1201 "prohibits gaining unauthorized access to a work by circumventing a technological protection measure put in place by the copyright owner where such protection measure otherwise effectively controls access to a copyrighted work. This prohibition on unauthorized access takes effect two years after enactment of the DMCA."   This is why circumventing IP copy protection is illegal, although this 1998 law is still being modified and re-interpreted.

In any case, the bottom line is still being adjudicated and probably will be for some time to come.  My advise is to not do it, and do not participate in any schemes that enable copyright violation.  I expect the law will become much more rigid, not more liberal in these matters.

Cheers.

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DYohn 
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Posted: November 05, 2005 at 10:03 AM / IP Logged  

Also, back to the Sony issue, they have apparently admitted their software is wrong and are trying to "fix" it:

Article HERE.

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kfr01 
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Posted: November 05, 2005 at 10:57 AM / IP Logged  
DYohn:
What an excellent balanced post. I'll attempt to back off my dramatic and soapbox-like and write an appropriate reply.
You draw a distinction between "personal use" (mix tapes, format shifting, and time shifting) and impermissible sharing. I believe this is a very important distinction; very important.
Bravo. I believe in Intellectual Property Rights. I recently accepted a job where I'll be obtaining and defending them for a living in less than a year. Artists, inventors, businesses; IP rights provide them with an important incentive to invest. An incentive authorized by the Constitution.
However, I also believe in some sort of Correct Level of IP rights. I'm glad you recognize the fact that the 1998 DMCA is still being modified and re-interpreted. You say that you expect the law to become more rigid rather than more liberal.
I HOPE that the voice of the public AND the voice of interested corporate entities (those making DVR's, VCR's, MP3 players, etc.) is strong enough to counterbalance the strong lobbying for the DMCA from the Sony/BMG's of the world.
During a period of interpretation and modification, I believe the public has a right to fight against laws that will negatively affect the way they enjoy items they buy in the sanctity of their own home.
Please note that this fighting, to me, should NOT include the sharing of music and movies. Illegal sharing DOES hurt authors, programmers, etc. I used to be a programmer. I understand this.
The regulation of IP rights are authorized in the Constitution by the following line, Article I, Section 8:
"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"
It has been well recognized by the courts and the academic world that incentive to invest is the primary interest we are worried about protecting. In other words, we want to encourage artists and companies to make music and invest in research and development. We accomplish this encouragement by providing artists and inventors some correct level of exclusive rights; a level where free-riders (those who spent no time and effort) cannot illegitimately compete or offer the work or invention for free, harming the ability of the artist or inventor to achieve the correct return on his investment.
Here's my problem with the DMCA: it goes beyond the level of promoting the progress of science and the useful arts authorized by the Constitution. It has not been shown that artists' ability to achieve a correct return on investment, stimulating their investment, is achieved by making it illegal for buyers of the CD's to be subject to civil and criminal penalties for exercising the "personal use" mentioned above (time shifting, format shifting, mix tapes).
The key question is this: Does allowing my personal use (time shifting, format shifting, mix tapes), after I bought the CD, harm the artist's ability to earn a return on his investment?
I say NO! I say that restricting my personal use is wrong because the artist or inventor has already extracted their profit from me. I say that restricting my personal use goes beyond the promotion of the arts and useful sciences authorized by the Constitution. I say that artists' and inventors' incentive to invest is not damaged by my personal use after I already paid for a CD.
Stevdart mentioned that I wasn't the norm when I said I buy CD's, convert them to FLAC for my personal use, and do not share them. He might be right. To the extent such format shifting harms artists' ability to earn a return on their creation-related investment, I believe the record companies -should- be able to do something about it.
However, I have neither seen proof that format shifting hurts artists' ability to earn a return on their investment, nor that there are less restrictive alternatives (that don't impose so many restrictions on me, the sucker that actually paid for price-fixed piece of plastic). I don't think Congress has seen this evidence either. I don't think the Music companies have this evidence. I think the Music companies have been blind to business models that could embrace the 21st century consumer.
I believe the CORRECT level of IP rights is an issue worth getting all Americans involved in. I believe that those opposed to rigid DMCA-like laws should speak out. I believe that the entire burden should be on the IP holders to enforce their own rights. Leave it to them to decide whether their ability to return a correct return on investment has been hampered by me, the format-shifting-buyer.
I believe IP rights should include IP holder's abilities to go after individuals that pirate works.
I don't believe that IP rights should include criminal or civil penalties that harm a paying customer's ability to enjoy their purchase in their own home.
I think that I should be able to buy a Sony/BMG CD and copy the darn thing to my IPOD without violating the DMCA. I bet most artists in this country also believe that I should be able to do this.
I don't think the artists' interests are the ones being served in the DMCA+Sony DRM case. I think Sony is trying to bolster, anticompetitively, their position in the digital player and music download world.
Thank you for the more-balanced post, DYohn. I hope this post followed suit and was also more-balanced and less dramatic.
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
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