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stevdart 
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Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: March 11, 2006 at 7:28 PM / IP Logged  

DYohn got me addicted to it!     New Member, site to buy components? - Page 2 -- posted image.

It would be beneficial to become familiar enough with those software programs (if you are thinking of trying that route) so that you can input some different woofer/tweeter combinations to see how they will work together.  Of course, that can take a lot of time as there's plenty of work to do just getting one set of drivers up and running to the point you can start experimenting with different things.  My approach has been (so far) to somehow find myself in possession of the drivers and then do my damnest to make them work together!  Not the best way to approach it, but I've had fun with it.  Actually, sort of like that...where I look at the parameters of drivers I want to match together and look at their published test responses (and the most important thing: price!), and make a judgement of whether I should try to use them together or not.  But I just do this type of thing for my own enjoyment and the learning experience, sort of like you are planning to do on this project.

The drivers freq ranges have to cross over each other at points where both drivers can easily accept the power at that level and are responding the way they should.  You'll find a lot of tweeter with an Fs of about 1,800 Hz and some others lower at 900 to 1000 Hz.  You'll probably note that the lower Fs models cost a little more than some of the others.  These are usually better in two-way systems because you can cross over at 3,500 Hz and be at over 1.5 octaves above the resonance freq.  You'll know by doing this that you can try a variety of different crossover topologies and the tweeter will likely not be in danger of receiving too much power at Fs.  Using a tweeter with a higher Fs would force you into a higher crossover point, and that is where you look at the woofer response at one octave above the target xover and see if it is still responding smoothly.

The woofer we looked at above would work with a lot of tweeters and will also give you good midbass that will cross well with the subwoofer.  You'll find tons of good information in those sources (much of it within the programs themselves e.g. Speaker Workshop), and if you have some free time between finals and all those things, look through this forum for posts from DYohn on driver selection.  But give yourself as much time as you can to absorb all the concepts.  With your EE studies, you'll be past my knowledge level in no time!  Stick with the forum...er, I see you've done that...but participate from time to time.  I'll be asking you questions before too long.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
saturnsubohio 
Copper - Posts: 114
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Joined: May 21, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: March 12, 2006 at 1:57 PM / IP Logged  
Well there is going to be quite some time before i hit the actual "Core" Speaker classes.. should be around the EE 333 level.. where as im only @ EE221...
I've given myself the time frame from now till June to design my system.. hopefully with as much time devoted to teh software part... building the actual system shouldnt take too long as im proficient with soldering and PCB's (computers are my main hobby)
can someone point me to a "generic" reading of the correspondance to things like Fs I.E what they mean in a beginners terms. I have the book Car Stereo Cookbook. so i may have to pick it back up again. as the first time i read it things were significantly over my head.
Thanks for the constant advice.. seems like you two guys are the only active ones on the forum
saturnsubohio 
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Posted: March 12, 2006 at 2:01 PM / IP Logged  
Well i cant edit my post. but i found that the glossary on this very site has a good definition for the driver terms Fs, and such.. now i just have to get the stuff in my head to corralate between the graphs i see and the Input and output variables.
DYohn, I want to design my system around low power input (that from a Pioneer or comparable HU) but want to keep Tight midbass. the extreme low's will be covered by a JL Audio W7 woofer (12") in a slot ported box that i built about 2 years ago.. it is tuned to 41Hz and put out ~140.3dB in a 98 Saturn.. My first system i built i noticed was lacking alot in the midbass due to me using cheaper premade co-axials. That Dayton woofer that StevDart has suggested seems to be a pretty good foundation piece as it looks like its pretty flexible and should be able to work well with a variety of other tweeters as suggested above.
Thanks again
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: March 12, 2006 at 3:06 PM / IP Logged  
Not so sure the Dayton woofer is a good one for a car audio 2-way system.  It should be crossed fairly low for a 2-way (like around 1Khz since the response starts to break up around 1.5KHz and there is a horrible cone mode at 3KHz.)  The posted response curve looks great 150Hz to 1KHz, so yea, it'll have decent mid-bass and low mid-range.  Plus since it's video shielded, the magnet structure will be pretty large if you're trying to fit it into a door.  A better choice might be a Vifa PL17, which can be crossed as high as about 4 KHz.   It's more expensive, but on sale for $22 at Madisound.  Or if you can spend a bit more, here's a very nice sounding Peerless designed for high-power car audio use.
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stevdart 
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Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: March 12, 2006 at 3:50 PM / IP Logged  

I've got the p17wj-00-08.jpg as the midbass in my 3-way main speakers at home, which crosses over to a subwoofer at 80 Hz.  The tonal quality is wonderful.  It's an 8 ohm driver (should be the last double-digit designation) but you should be able to incorporate it into the car system.  Perhaps not, though, with your power availablity.  I'm not sure what the difference is in models WJ and WG.  It cost me $44 each from PartsExpress, I remember that. 

http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/eminence/pages/params02/params.htm is a good source of info and history on speaker parameter data.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: March 12, 2006 at 4:11 PM / IP Logged  

In the Vifa designation system, "G" stands for a 1" voice coil and "J" stands for a 1-1/4" voice coil.  "W" means woofer.

http://www.d-s-t.com/link/main/tech/codes2.htm

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saturnsubohio 
Copper - Posts: 114
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Posted: March 12, 2006 at 4:40 PM / IP Logged  
More influx of knowledge.. wow you guys are excellent..
DYohn, that Peerless woofer looks nice.. and seems like the magnet is more easily adaptable to a car door.. that was the one thing i didnt necessarily think was good on the Dayton was the magnet size... the doors on the car are fairly shallow because of the nature of a small coupe.
I was thinking of the following.
Sub crossed @ 80hz
Midbass front crossed @ 2600Hz using the Peerless above
Tweeter from 2600Hz up..
should i be thinking of any kind of attenuation for these also?
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: March 12, 2006 at 7:18 PM / IP Logged  

I've used both the Vifa PL17 and the Peerless (they are made in the same factory by the way) and they sound excellent.  The Peerless CSCX will handle a lot more power.

The way to know if you can cross at 2600 Hz is to find a tweeter that will handle that.  Look for one with an Fs of 1000Hz or lower.  Then you will need to attenuate the tweeter to match the sensitivity of the woofer.  The Peerless is listed as 90db/2.83 volts/meter, but since it is a 4-ohm speaker that is equivalent to 87db per watt/meter.  If you choose a tweeter with, say, 91db/watt/meter, then you will have to pad it down to the woofer's 87db.  Follow?  Also, I recommend a high-pass on the midbass @ 80Hz, which can be the active filter on the amplifier.

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saturnsubohio 
Copper - Posts: 114
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Posted: March 12, 2006 at 10:40 PM / IP Logged  
yeah i understand that.. the padding the tweeter down to the same sensitivity of the woofer so i get equal sound.. i would use a HPF on the midbass too as said above... the HPF would be applied from the HU directly.
so if i want to cross the Woofer @ 2600ish why would i look for a tweeter with Resonant frequency of 1000hz or lower?? wouldnt i want that frequency to be around the 2600Hz?
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: March 13, 2006 at 1:17 AM / IP Logged  
No, you need to high pass a tweeter no lower than 1.5X the Fs.  I recommend closer to 3X to keep the tweeter safe.  The steeper the crossover slope the closer you can approach Fs.  You want signal level to be down at least 12db at Fs, and preferably more like 24db...
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