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Sub/Amp Performance


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studum 
Member - Posts: 39
Member spacespace
Joined: June 01, 2006
Posted: June 01, 2006 at 11:03 AM / IP Logged  

Last weekend I finally got around to installing my new sub and amp. While  I can't say it isn't working... I

will say that it definitely isn't performing as expected. The sub and amp are the Phoenix Gold Xenon X10d2 and Xenon X400.1.
 
What's occurring is that to get a volume output from the sub to the point that I can even hear it in the car I have to turn the gain on the amp up all the way, turn the deck sub level to full and set the bass boost on the amp to 1/2. I have installed many sub/amp setups and never have I run into this type of situation before. The bass won't even shake the rear-view mirror on my windshield. Basically, it should be louder but I can't get it any louder. I have searched the forum but couldn't find anything like this.
 
To give you an idea of my expectaions prior to this setup I had a Kicker Comp 10" running off of an Infinty 310a mono amp with the amp gain around half. It was plenty loud and had plenty of room to play around with when I wanted to. That was with the amp wired with 8ga. wire.
 
My installation details are as follows: 4 ga. power and ground, 1 farad cap, Pioneer DEH-P80MP head unit , Infinity Reference 6 1/2" components as a front stage (running off of deck power in 60 watt mode), Pheonix Gold Xenon X400.1 amp and Xenon X10d2 sub wired to a verified 1ohm load. I built the box out of 1" MDF, screwed, glued, and siliconed. It is sealed and has an internal volume of .85 which is what the owner's manual for the sub recommends for sound quality. Crossover settings are as follows: deck HP = 80Hz, Deck LP (sub out) = 80Hz, amp LP = as high as possible (using deck), amp subsonic = about 18Hz. 
 
Looking for your guys opinions or advise on what to do. I've double and triple checked all the wiring and it seems good. I don't know if I've missed a step somewhere along the way.
 
Thanks in advance for your time.

luckydevil 
Silver - Posts: 365
Silver spacespace
Joined: July 04, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: June 01, 2006 at 11:24 AM / IP Logged  
I'd try to adjust the settings on the head unit some more. It sounds like you know what you are doing with the install.
Is there a way to remove the HU crossover settings while still getting sub output?
studum 
Member - Posts: 39
Member spacespace
Joined: June 01, 2006
Posted: June 01, 2006 at 12:25 PM / IP Logged  

I believe that as long as the sub out is turned on, on the deck the crossover is active. What's concerning me is that the sub volume on the deck has to be at max and the gain on the amp is also @ max to hear it.

With my prior setup I had the sub tuned to my normal listening level with the deck sub volume @ 0, that way I could turn it up or down from taht base point depending on my wishes / mood / passengers. Currently, how my new setup is running its barely at my normal listening level. I have no room to turn it up when the mood strikes.

BTW, eq on the deck is set to flat during all of this. This is how I almost always listen to the system.

Thanks

haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: June 01, 2006 at 12:33 PM / IP Logged  
Sounds to me like you have one voice coil wired out of phase... Turn everything back down, and reverse the leads on ONE voice coil... NOT both. Are your voice coils wired parallel (for one ohm) or series (for 4 ohms)? However it is wired, reverse the wires on one set of terminals, and try it again...
Also, you ARE only using a 10 inch woofer... Keep this in mind.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
studum 
Member - Posts: 39
Member spacespace
Joined: June 01, 2006
Posted: June 01, 2006 at 12:50 PM / IP Logged  

haemphyst wrote:
Sounds to me like you have one voice coil wired out of phase... Turn everything back down, and reverse the leads on ONE voice coil... NOT both. Are your voice coils wired parallel (for one ohm) or series (for 4 ohms)? However it is wired, reverse the wires on one set of terminals, and try it again...
Also, you ARE only using a 10 inch woofer... Keep this in mind.

The voice coils are currently wired in paralell. I'm pretty sure that they are wired in phase correctly but I will double check tonight after work (I never thought of this possibility). I guess it would still show 1ohm load even if out of phase right? I have confirmed a 1 ohm load. 

I know I'm only using a 10, but that's all I've used for the past few years. I do so because I do require a fully usable trunk (must fit a wheelchair). Right now I have the amp turned off for fear of damaging something until I figure out exactly what's going on.

haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: June 01, 2006 at 1:31 PM / IP Logged  
Yes, the impedance won't be any different in or out of phase...
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
studum 
Member - Posts: 39
Member spacespace
Joined: June 01, 2006
Posted: June 02, 2006 at 9:17 AM / IP Logged  
Here's I did last night: a sub switch with my car and my brother's.
 
First and foremost I double checked my wiring in the box. Everything was in proper phase and wired correctly. I did change the wiring to series to perform the sub switch though so as not to destroy my brothers amp. Before actually switching the subs I tested the sub on my amp with the 4ohm load. It was a little louder, but not by much. I later discovered that this increase in volume was due to testing inside my garage instead of outside. Low notes were playing fine (low as in 20 to 40/50Hz) but there was still no "higher" end bass and zero punch.
 
My bro's setup is a cheapo Kenwood HU, Kenwood 12" sub in a sealed box, and a Planet Audio vx1502 2 ch.amp. The amp is 300 rms bridged into 4 ohms @ 13 volts His deck crossovers were both @ 80Hz (HP and LP), amp crossover was off, sub volume on deck was at +1.
 
When doing the switch, for compariosons sake, I left all settings untouched on both amps and both decks.
 
First I hooked up my sub and box in his car, turned it on, and wow.... sounded exactly as I wanted it to (except it wa in his car and not mine, lol). Tight, clean bass that had a pretty good kick to it. I then inspected the gain on his amp... just below the halfway point.
 
Second I hooked his sub in my car and turned it on. As I expected, it sounded similar to how my sub sounded. Extreme low end was present, but nothing else.
 
I came to the conclusion that it seemed as though the LP filter on the amp was malfunctioning and stuck on a very low setting.
 
Basically, I deleted the possibility that the problem was within the sub. To determine if it is the amp I guess there's really no other way than do do an amp switch. What I am going to do to test the output of the deck is unplug the RCAs from my amp and extend them into my brother's car to make sure the signal from my deck is still good. In your opinion is this an acceptable method to use? I was going to switch the output from sub to rear out last night, but it is much easier to do this than to get at the back of my deck in my car. My theory is that If I can confirm a good signal from my deck to another sub/amp setup (which I know otherwise performs well) then the problem must be the amp itself. But if amp/sub in another car produces the same type of output as my car going through the same RCAs then the problem enlies within the signal to the amp.
 
On a brighter note the sub running off my brothers amp sounded excellent. After hearing it he asked if I wanted to trade subs with him lol.
 
Opinions? Suggestions? BTW everything is brand new in both cars except for my HU which is about 1.5yrs old.
 
Thanks
studum 
Member - Posts: 39
Member spacespace
Joined: June 01, 2006
Posted: June 05, 2006 at 1:51 PM / IP Logged  

Over the weekend I figured out what the problem was with frequency response of the sub. I had too much fibrefill in the box. As a shot in the dark I took all of the fiber fill out and put the sub back in the car and I was hearing all the bass that I was supposed to be hearing.

I also did the "Big 3" upgrade. This mod put a massive smile on my face the second I turned on the stereo. There was NO noise whatsover through the speakers (other than music). Perfectly clear, and this is through my HU! I could only imagine what it would be like if I had a descent 4ch amp. My iPod sounds like how cds used to, and cds sound amazing. As an added bonus, the car runs/idles smoother too.

The sub is now sounding exactly how I wanted it to. However, the gain on the amp is still at full. Sub volume on the deck is now at +3 out of 6, and bass boost on the amp is down almost all the way. 

Will running the amp at full gain harm it over time? I've never had a line driver before, but if I used one would it allow me to turn the gain on the amp, and my sub volume level on the deck down? My deck is a Pioneer DEH-P80MP with 4 volt preouts and the amp can take up to 8volt rms.  

If it will help, what should I look for in a descent line driver to buy?

Thanks for all the help everybody.

rdaudio 
Member - Posts: 26
Member spacespace
Joined: June 05, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: June 05, 2006 at 4:27 PM / IP Logged  
make sure that you wire the sub correctly. pos to pos. neg to neg it sounds like you have the woofer out of phase. the xeon amps are vary touchy when it comes to input voltage also.
Revolution Design Audio
rdaudio 
Member - Posts: 26
Member spacespace
Joined: June 05, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: June 05, 2006 at 4:30 PM / IP Logged  
put in a bass cd at 40 hz and turn it up and use a multi meter to see what voltage its putting out.
Revolution Design Audio
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