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Transmission Destroyed By Python 871xp


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usabuilt 
Copper - Posts: 161
Copper spacespace
Joined: September 11, 2007
Location: United States
Posted: October 16, 2007 at 4:30 PM / IP Logged  
The tach wire only reads a signal, I don't see how it can do anything to the transmission of the vehicle..or cause it to not idle properly when the key takes over, unless it is pinched somewhere..something seems fishy
darth tater 
Member - Posts: 11
Member spacespace
Joined: October 16, 2007
Posted: October 17, 2007 at 5:58 PM / IP Logged  
mabuffalo wrote:
Butt connections: I never used butt connections in my electronic work in my research lab. I’m only familiar with them in automotive work and presumed that they were the industry standard. My conservative approach would have probably used them with heat shrink tubing over the connection between the two pieces. Alternatively, I might have used a wiring strip under the dash to make the various connections. (I would never expect anyone professionally installing an alarm system to use this latter approach; it’s certainly overkill and only considered by those of us doing our own installation who are very conservative in our approach.)

I know I am jumping into this way late but butt connections are actually required over solder for automotive wiring repairs by just about every manufacture as they have proven to be more reliable of a connection and offer less resistance.
Also the aviation industry REQUIRES that all wires are repaired with butt connectors and are NEVER to be soldered.
too many damn cars
mabuffalo 
Copper - Posts: 63
Copper spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: June 23, 2007
Location: United States
Posted: October 17, 2007 at 6:26 PM / IP Logged  
darth tater wrote:
mabuffalo wrote:
Butt connections: I never used butt connections in my electronic work in my research lab. I’m only familiar with them in automotive work and presumed that they were the industry standard. My conservative approach would have probably used them with heat shrink tubing over the connection between the two pieces. Alternatively, I might have used a wiring strip under the dash to make the various connections. (I would never expect anyone professionally installing an alarm system to use this latter approach; it’s certainly overkill and only considered by those of us doing our own installation who are very conservative in our approach.)

I know I am jumping into this way late but butt connections are actually required over solder for automotive wiring repairs by just about every manufacture as they have proven to be more reliable of a connection and offer less resistance.
Also the aviation industry REQUIRES that all wires are repaired with butt connectors and are NEVER to be soldered.

You're not butting in (Transmission Destroyed By Python 871xp - Page 19 -- posted image.) too late for me . . . I'm still learning and I appreciate the information. This is not my area of expertise and I'm evaluating the information as I read more about the topic.

MABuffalo
usabuilt 
Copper - Posts: 161
Copper spacespace
Joined: September 11, 2007
Location: United States
Posted: October 18, 2007 at 8:53 AM / IP Logged  
Darth Tater has a good point, I allways say solder is for circuit boards only, and even then it is a skill that takes time to master..
giving someone a soldering iron without any experience or training on how to properly dress the wire is not going to make the job a professional one.
I think one big problem in this industry is not many have a basic understanding of electronics.
If you look at how the OEM connects two wires they use a c-clamp, which is like a but connector that is opened up and crimp then tape..soldering 2 wires can create a capacitance unless both wires are properly "dressed"..
Not to mention the toxic fumes you breathe under the dash when you solder without proper ventalation.
extreme1 
Silver - Posts: 1,070
Silver spacespace
Joined: February 12, 2003
Location: Canada
Posted: October 18, 2007 at 9:10 AM / IP Logged  
are we going to have this argument again?
do you expect to cut every wire in the vehicle when installing a starter just so you can butt connect them together?
aviation uses alot of solid core wire, you cannot ever solder solid core wire.
and as far as oem wiring repairs, I've seen alot of these so called repairs, they are doodiee, you can easily pull them apart. A properly soldered connection cannot be pulled apart.
problem is there's alot and I mean ALOT of improperly soldered connections out there. Case in point I removed a starter from an 03 montana yesterday, I used my solder iron on 1 connection to remove it, they others I just unbent the starterwires and removed them, all the vans wires were solder free. disgusting.
Shaughn Murley
Install Manager, Dealer Services
Visions Electronics
Red Deer, Alberta
darth tater 
Member - Posts: 11
Member spacespace
Joined: October 16, 2007
Posted: October 18, 2007 at 9:32 AM / IP Logged  
extreme1 wrote:
are we going to have this argument again?
do you expect to cut every wire in the vehicle when installing a starter just so you can butt connect them together?
Did I say that? did anyone say that?
I believe I specifically stated a wire repair, which would then also mean when cutting a wire not just tapping into it.
[quote]
aviation uses alot of solid core wire, you cannot ever solder solid core wire.[/quote]
They state for all repairs.
[quote]
and as far as oem wiring repairs, I've seen alot of these so called repairs, they are doodiee, you can easily pull them apart. A properly soldered connection cannot be pulled apart.[/quote]
Actually a properly soldered connection can be pulled apart and it was tested by an auotomotive engineering magazine a few years back when VW and Audi made it mandatory that all wiring repairs be done with but connectors. They put a current through the wires simulating a short with a load of a strain gauge on the wire representing it being pulled around a corner or something they checked when the joint failed.. the solder connection failed every time.. the but connector never failed.
Having worked both on a dealer level and an aftermarket level I have seen my share of doodie as you say and there are far more turds coming from the aftermarket. Does that mean everyone in the aftermarket is bad or the dealer is good.. of course not I would never say that as its not true, but that doesn't mean all dealer work is doodie. And the checks in place on a dealer level are much greater then the aftermarket.
VW/Audi warranty requires the use those heat shrink with glue in them butt connectors. If done correctly with the tool they provide for crimping, which can be purchased aftermarket also (I have one of those), It will hold and chances are you will brake the wire before the joint fails.
too many damn cars
darth tater 
Member - Posts: 11
Member spacespace
Joined: October 16, 2007
Posted: October 18, 2007 at 9:37 AM / IP Logged  
usabuilt wrote:
Darth Tater has a good point, I allways say solder is for circuit boards only, and even then it is a skill that takes time to master..
giving someone a soldering iron without any experience or training on how to properly dress the wire is not going to make the job a professional one.
I think one big problem in this industry is not many have a basic understanding of electronics.
If you look at how the OEM connects two wires they use a c-clamp, which is like a but connector that is opened up and crimp then tape..soldering 2 wires can create a capacitance unless both wires are properly "dressed"..
Not to mention the toxic fumes you breathe under the dash when you solder without proper ventalation.
Oh the fumes.. Going on your solder is for boards, I have soldered in about 1000 eeproms for automotive peformance software while at one job. Company I work for now is all flash based through the OBD II port.
So I have gobs of board level solder work including repairing bad traces etc. Still I break out the crimper, heat gun and but connectors whenever I have to do a wiring repair or modification in a car.
The OEM comment is also key, no one really realizes that if you tke out an entire car harness there is not one solder connection anywhere.
companys that make $10K wiring harneses for race cars, thats just for the engine by the way, will not use one drop of solder anywhere.
too many damn cars
mabuffalo 
Copper - Posts: 63
Copper spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: June 23, 2007
Location: United States
Posted: October 18, 2007 at 11:41 AM / IP Logged  

extreme1 wrote:
are we going to have this argument again?
do you expect to cut every wire in the vehicle when installing a starter just so you can butt connect them together?
aviation uses alot of solid core wire, you cannot ever solder solid core wire.
and as far as oem wiring repairs, I've seen alot of these so called repairs, they are doodiee, you can easily pull them apart. A properly soldered connection cannot be pulled apart.
problem is there's alot and I mean ALOT of improperly soldered connections out there. Case in point I removed a starter from an 03 montana yesterday, I used my solder iron on 1 connection to remove it, they others I just unbent the starterwires and removed them, all the vans wires were solder free. disgusting.

Looks like the 'connector' topic has reemerged, eh? I wasn't quite satisfied with the apparent resolution from the last round. Or stated another way, when is the last time you saw a cable installer whip out their soldering iron when connecting your cable TV? The connectors on mine have to pass a lot of bandwidth with both digital and analog signals residing on the same line (e.g., multiple computers and TVs connected to the same cable feed). No problemo with their crimped connectors. Yes, but their connections don't vibrate you say. Well, what about those in California? Do they solder their connections there? OK, more seriously, the satelite trucks carrying broadcast-quality HDTV signals use the same crimped connectors!

I first started using crimped connections for some applications in the 1980s. I had previously soldered the amphenol pins used in my DB-style connectors on computer serial and comm ports. I was skeptical of the newer, crimped-style connectors and refused to use them for a long time. Eventually, I tried a few and they seemed to fail quickly. I then invested in a high-quality crimping tool (around $80 back in the 1980s) and learned to crimp 'properly' (i.e., practice, practice, practice) -- I eventually got it right. It worked for carrying these sensitive high-speed computer signals, so I suppose when done properly it should also work with simple automotive 12-volt applications. (FYI: I don't actually use butt connectors, but rather the C-spade type for making connections in my vehicles that might later need to be disconnected for maintenance of the installed device. I also use heat-shrink tubing including the fusible type.)

RE: Soldering solid wire. Gee, I don't seem to have a problem with this in carrying high-speed digital and analog signals. I would suggest reading the 12-volt's discussion on "how to solder" to improve your technique. Solid wire is the standard for on-board computer circuitry and for most experimental devices prototyped in state-of-the-art research facilities. Stranded wiring is used with stressed or some high frequency devices.

What (some? many? most?) automotive installers consider a soldered connection would be marginally acceptable in my research applications (yes, I saw the 'connections'). They are simply poor, high-impedance connections done without proper training in electronics but which usually suffice because of the simple nature of most automotive signals. I'm not sure that these same installers would be able to properly use a crimping tool, but in some ways that method is a bit more fool-proof than the poor soldering technique that is commonly used in 12-volt automotive installations.

Finally, I've sure that the aviation industry has lower standards than the automotive industry. Transmission Destroyed By Python 871xp - Page 19 -- posted image. This is like telling me that the reliability of DEI devices is better than NASA's quality standards and defies serious comment.

Have a good day, eh.

MABuffalo
KarTuneMan 
Platinum - Posts: 7,056
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: December 14, 2004
Location: Isle Of Man
Posted: October 18, 2007 at 12:18 PM / IP Logged  

Finally, I've sure that the aviation industry has lower standards than the automotive industry. Transmission Destroyed By Python 871xp - Page 19 -- posted image. This is like telling me that the reliability of DEI devices is better than NASA's quality standards and defies serious comment.

Not really being a DEI fan..... I love this statement.   But I am learning. Astroflex (DEI of Canada)Transmission Destroyed By Python 871xp - Page 19 -- posted image.

sarcomax 
Copper - Posts: 276
Copper spacespace
Joined: November 09, 2005
Location: California, United States
Posted: October 18, 2007 at 3:21 PM / IP Logged  

I have never had a bad dei product, but I have seen two space shuttles explode...

My research is done. NASA can't design ANYTHING. PSSSSSH... Rocket scientists...

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