sound processor, eq, line driver?

lol... ;) the12volt • Support the12volt.com

First of all, donpisto, I'd like to personally thank you for being concise, and your use of proper grammar and punctuation in your posts, and your complete lack of internet slang - "ur", "r", "l33t", et cetera. It it refreshing to see a newer member to our forum do so. One of the pet peeves of many of our senior members (and most especially me, I think... I've been known to actually re-write a really poorly written post.) is run-on sentences, turning into 87 line paragraphs with no commas or periods or any other punctuation. I'm going to address these one item at a time, and it might involve several posts.

donpisto wrote: Turning up the gain IS asking for the amp to do more. In turn, when asking the amp to do more work, it will heat up. Turn up the volume on your HU, it will heat up more. Turn up the bass, it will heat up more. Why? Because it's requiring more out of the amplifier. What you are saying doesn't make sense. It's like saying if you run a lot of programs on your computer, it's not gonna slow it down, but asking it to do more will slow down.

JUST BECAUSE you turn the gain up, when moving from an 8V deck to a 2V deck, you are NOT asking the amp to do more. You are matching the gain stages to get the SAME OUTPUT with a lower input voltage. Input voltage, no matter WHAT it is, on any one given amplifier (8V vs. 2V) will not cause the amplifier to run hotter, if the output power is the same. You are NOT asking the amplifier to do more, if the output is 500 watts, whichever input voltage you choose. 500 watts out, is 500 watts out whether it is a 23dBV gain or a 200dBV gain. The amplifier will make the same amount of heat, no matter WHERE the gain is set, as long as the output power is the same. I also would like to mention here, that when I say "the output power is the same", I should also specify that I mean the same voltage and current, necessitating the SAME LOAD. Lowering the impedance will change the V/I ratio, changing the efficiency. Higher voltage is easier to make efficently than higher current. THIS is why amplifiers loaded with lower impedance loads get hotter than an amplifier loaded with a higher impedance, making the same power.

jmelton86 wrote: What amps do you know of that won't accept less than 2v input? I walked outside and checked my sub amps. They accept from 8v - .003v. Meaning, even 3/1000 of a volt will still give the amp enough to reach full power. My front stage amp goes from 5v - .2v. Do you see what we're saying?

Even the new Alpine PDX amplifiers accept from .1V to 2V. My old "new generation" Eclipse amplifiers were rated (and mind you, they were SUPPOSED to match with 8V Eclipse head units) from .05V to 8V.

donpisto wrote: Steven Kephart wrote: Actually 10 dB is double the loudness. From what I have seen and heard many people say, including manufacturers is that to acquire a 3dB gain, you would need to double the cone area, or double the power. Here is one link that specifically states that 3 dB is twice the loudness: http://trace.wisc.edu/docs/2004-About-dB/ Speaking to anyone who competes in SPL will also tell you 3 dB will be twice as loud. How do you figure 10 dB?

10dB is twice as loud to the human ear, due to our non-linear responses. 3dB IS a doubling of volume, but we do not perceive it that way. 1dB is the smallest difference we can hear, 3dB is a noticeable difference, and 10dB is twice as loud. True, that 3dB *is* twice as loud, but only in the most literal of senses, not when referring to our sensitivity to sound.

tcss wrote: Couple of quick notes before this thread gets locked. 3 db requires twice the power, it is not twice as loud, 10 db is. The definition of a db is " the smallest differance in volume the human ear can detect". So how again can anyone hear .5 db?

I was going to mention that as well. Generally speaking, I was going to say that I cannot believe that you were able to hear the difference of a mere .5dB on TL. Impossible. I have been listening to systems for YEARS, and I have heard some of the finest systems that money can buy, and I mean that EXCEPTIONALLY literally, I pride myself on my ear, I am often used in my circle of friends as the golden ear when tuning systems, and *I* can't hear even 1dB, in most sections of the audible spectrum. At the critical mid-frequencies, I can hear as little as .75dB (at least in my own mind), I can hear even a 320kbps MP3, I value my hearing VERY much, but below about 250 to 300Hz, I cannot believe that you can hear .5dB, and most especially in a car. I do believe that (and this points back to Steven's post) you are hearing TONAL differences between the decks, on possibly tonal differences due to interactions with the outputs and cables, or outputs and amp inputs, but I can't believe that you are hearing (IN A FLAT CURVE) .5dB!

donpisto wrote: Oh really? So tell me, I guess I should be able to fine tune my system by adjusting the bass and treble from -7 to +7? That is enough? I think not. It has no EQ that is usefull without the H701 processor. Do you see any SQ guys running the W200 or W205 without the processor? Can you do time alignment and set your soundstage without the processor? The deck, is really useless without the processor if you want the audio to sound right. I'm currently using it without the processor and it sounds okay.... and please don't tell me adjust the bass and treble is because I am not setting it right, you need more than that. You need to set crossover points and adjust the slope on them as well.

Here again, we are looking to TONAL differences, not sheer output differences. I also think you are placing FAR too much emphasis on the importance of the 701. OK, sure, it offers 4V outputs, but I personally think it's a bit overpriced for what it does. The processors I have in my car smoke the H701 for the same amount of money. OK, so really they are priced in unobtanium, but when you COULD get them, they were actually the same amount of money. 2 in, 6 out, up to 6 way crossover capabilities (in mono mode), up to 48dB slopes, TRUE parametric equalization... and guess what? Up to 8 Volt input, but only a 2VRMS output! Hmmm... Why is that, I wonder? Because EVERY AMPLIFIER IN THE WORLD will have a 2V range on the gain control, meaning that these 800 dollar processors will be able to drive to full output any amplification device attached to it's output. High RCA voltage is not mandatory.

donpisto wrote: Again, do a little research and get some experience before you blab your mouth. Having a higher post count doesn't mean you know more ;)

I have done research. LOTS of research. TOO MUCH research, some might say. I have built Tesla coils, Flame speakers, ribbon drivers, planar magnetic drivers, transmission lines, quarter shrinkers, Class D amplifiers (from kits, sure... but still.) analog and switching power supplies, crossovers (both active and passive, (both parallel and series types)). I have in my garage two 50kV discharge capacitors from Shiva - the laser built early on in the quest for fusion energy. My shed it littered with all of the electrical and audio experiments I have tried... some failed, some quite successful. I assure you, I don't "blab". There are (I think) two members on this forum that have actually BEEN to my house, and at least one more that has met some of the people I hang out with.

Steven Kephart wrote: Actually Dave is highly respected around here because of the extensive research he does and the experience he has. It helps having friends who happen to be engineers at Harman Kardon. You really need to pick your fights more wisely. This forum isn't like many of the others, with teenage kids blabbing their mouths trying to sound like they know something. Many of the people here have extensive backgrounds in this field.

tcss wrote: Rule #1, don't argue with Hamfist. Rule #2, see rule #1.

BWAHAHAHAHA! Thanks for the votes, both of you!! I appreciate that, but I have learned many things here... I am NOT infallible, much to my own chagrin!

the12volt wrote: No reason yet for locking this thread tcss, so please try to keep it that way. BTW, Rule # 3, rules created by tcss should be taken with a grain of salt ;)

Indeed.! It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

donpisto wrote: Steven Kephart wrote: Why wouldn't you go past 3/4 if the amplifier never clips? I set my gains with an oscilloscope and found I could turn the gains all the way up and never get clipping. What do you think will happen by doing this? I don't recommend it, because there are many people who don't know what they are doing...even them turning it up beyond 1/2 gain can damage the amp. But you're right, if you know what you're doing you can run full gain and be fine, however, some people like to turn up bass boost. All the bass boost is, is pretty much an EQ. It boosts a certain frequency dependent upon how much you turn up the bass boost. I personally don't use it and don't think it is really necessary. Just that people who dont know much turn it up, and run full gain, and wonder why their equipment gets damaged.

Education is part of you giving an answer. let us use your recomendation and your example. I have a 4V output deck and an Amp that will accept .1V to 8V. 1/2 way would kinda works since 4V is 1/2 the scale. But what if the Amp's range is .1V to 4V? Then by your blanket setting you have set the amp up impropperly likely cuasing the amp to clip easily. 

Addressing the Bass Boost: If you encounter someone doing this then explain to them how to properly get more bass. People use the gains to boost the bass because it is easier or a lot cheaper or..... (They use Equalizers / Processors for the same reason.) Clearly this in not what the gains are for nor is it the proper use of an Equalizer/ Processor. If the gains are set up properly and they do not have enough bass then they need to upgrade or buy more "Stuff" (yes that is a techniqual term) otherwise they risk damaging their equipment.

donpisto wrote: Steven Kephart wrote: Actually 10 dB is double the loudness. From what I have seen and heard many people say, including manufacturers is that to acquire a 3dB gain, you would need to double the cone area, or double the power. Here is one link that specifically states that 3 dB is twice the loudness: http://trace.wisc.edu/docs/2004-About-dB/ Speaking to anyone who competes in SPL will also tell you 3 dB will be twice as loud. How do you figure 10 dB?

I think this has now been covered by both TCSS and THE12VOLT...I like rule #3 Hehehe

donpisto wrote: Steven Kephart wrote: Actually Dave is highly respected around here because of the extensive research he does and the experience he has. It helps having friends who happen to be engineers at Harman Kardon. You really need to pick your fights more wisely. This forum isn't like many of the others, with teenage kids blabbing their mouths trying to sound like they know something. Many of the people here have extensive backgrounds in this field. I'm not trying to pick any fights, but I'm trying to get facts out rather than someone misinforming another person. I dont understand how he states that if an amp "is running hotter", it ISN'T because you turned the gain up, it's because you are asking it to do more. That does not make ANY sense whatsoever. It's contradictory.

This is thier point to you. You have been making contradictory statements getting your theories a bit mixed up in your explainations and they were correcting what you said. They encourage all to jump in as no one person "knows" everything about this audio world nor can one person have enough time to answer all the questions. A lot of these guys here are real world installers.

I have MAD respect for these guys running around with the yellow symbols under there names. What they are telling you is accurate and well researched. If they don't know they will find out.

A side note;  I have Met Heamphyst in the real world and listened to his system and can tell you he has put theory into practice!

Good post. Glad to have you on the forum donpisto.There is no such thing as free installation!

Thanks tcss. Glad to be here and sorry for offending anyone.

donpisto wrote: Thanks tcss. Glad to be here and sorry for offending anyone.

No offense taken... Gotta get up pret-ty early to offend THIS sailor! Welcome!It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."