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must start with key before remote


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bluelu00 
Member - Posts: 20
Member spacespace
Joined: January 29, 2008
Location: Minnesota, United States
Posted: January 29, 2008 at 7:49 AM / IP Logged  
I installed a remote start and car alarm in a 1999 Grand Am. It works fine, with one exception. In the morning, if I try to use the remote start it will start up and then kill after about 10 seconds. It does this the four times and then quits. If I go out and start the car with the key and then push the remote start button it starts up and stays running like it is supposed to. Having to go outside kind of defeats the purpose of having a remote start...so I am hoping someone has a suggestion...
Thanks!
GregK 
Copper - Posts: 74
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 30, 2003
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posted: January 29, 2008 at 8:06 AM / IP Logged  
Which bypass module did you use and is it programmed correctly?
GDK Electronics
Home theatre & mobile electronics installations
Winnipeg, MB
brcidd 
Copper - Posts: 274
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 07, 2005
Location: Ohio, United States
Posted: January 29, 2008 at 8:15 AM / IP Logged  
Your method of bypassing the Passlock II is inop- how did you do it? - there are several ways- I prefer the GMATA II - "dial-in" method- your car acts as if you did not use a bypass---You can verify this- by looking at your dash when remote started- does the "theft" light come on and flash??  If you did use a bypass- it isn't working......
Brcidd - Engineer That Does Remote Starter Installs on the side.
bluelu00 
Member - Posts: 20
Member spacespace
Joined: January 29, 2008
Location: Minnesota, United States
Posted: January 29, 2008 at 8:30 AM / IP Logged  
I eliminated the security system by cutting the yellow wire behind the radio. Before I cut the wire, the car would start and shut off right away...now it only does it the first time I use it in the morning and before it shuts off now it stays running for longer than it did before cutting the wire. It works just fine throughout the day...just not right away in the morning.
brcidd 
Copper - Posts: 274
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 07, 2005
Location: Ohio, United States
Posted: January 29, 2008 at 9:26 AM / IP Logged  

I don't think you can "elimnate" the security system like that-- I think when you do that- it actually runs in the "tamper" mode- and the next time you lose battery power- (unhook your battery) that it will not start with that wire cut- from what I have read-- I never have tried that method- but have always used the resistive bypass method for Passlock II -- for a $7 module- why try anything else?

Is your theft light on when driving and starting with the key?

Brcidd - Engineer That Does Remote Starter Installs on the side.
brhaugen 
Copper - Posts: 275
Copper spacespace
Joined: September 30, 2005
Location: North Dakota, United States
Posted: January 29, 2008 at 11:16 AM / IP Logged  
brcidd is correct, cutting the wire doesn't eliminate the security system. I am surprised your car starts at all.
I would restore the yellow wire and buy a bypass kit.
-OR-
Do the tried and true method of using 2 relays and a resistor.
brcidd 
Copper - Posts: 274
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 07, 2005
Location: Ohio, United States
Posted: January 29, 2008 at 12:13 PM / IP Logged  
Here is what the service manual for your car says.......Vehicle Theft Deterrent (VTD) Description

Important

Due to component variability, the vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system must have the learn procedure performed regardless, if the vehicle starts on the first ignition cycle after a VTD repair.

All codes in the theft deterrent module must be cleared for a relearn.

The vehicle theft deterrent system is designed in order to prevent vehicle theft by disabling the fuel injectors unless the lock cylinder is correctly engaged by a mechanical key. The theft deterrent system uses the following 4 components for theft prevention:

  • The lock cylinder
  • The ignition switch
  • The body control module (BCM)
  • The powertrain control module (PCM)

When starting the engine, the PCM searches for a password from the BCM through the Class 2 serial data circuit. If the password is not recognized or not present, the PCM will disable the engine. Two modes of tamper detection are provided:

  1. No password received The engine will start and stall quickly. SECURITY telltale will flash on the instrument panel cluster (IPC) and then stay ON steady.
  2. Incorrect or disable password received (More than 3 invalid passwords are received) The engine is disabled for at least 10 minutes and the SECURITY telltale will illuminate solid on the IPC during the 10 minutes.

After the vehicle has passed theft detection, the PCM will continue normal operation.

Ignition Switch

The mechanical key and lock cylinder is located in the instrument panel assembly. The electrical switching portion of the assembly is separate from the key and lock cylinder. Both of the components are synchronized and work in conjunction through the action of the actuator rod assembly.

Passlock™ Lock Cylinder

The Passlock™ lock cylinder is a locking cylinder that turns a rotating magnet past a stationary hall effect sensor. This action creates the Passlock™ cylinder data. The Passlock™ cylinder data is sent to the Body Control Module (BCM). The Passlock™ lock cylinder is interfaced with the BCM via a 3-wire connection:

  • Power
  • Ground
  • Data
Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is located on the lower left side of the instrument panel.

The PCM communicates with the Body Control Module (BCM) via serial data over the class 2 serial data bus, CKT 1807. When the BCM determines a passed theft condition, the BCM sends a coded password to the PCM. When the PCM receives the correct password, the PCM enables the fuel injection system, allowing the vehicle to operate correctly. The PCM may allow the car to start and quickly stall during a failed theft condition.

The following conditions may cause the PCM to enter a tamper mode:

  • A bad timing cycle
  • An incorrect password

If the BCM does not receive a password within a preset time window, the BCM will enter a short tamper mode. During this mode, the PCM will not allow the car to operate for 4 seconds.

If the password is incorrect, the PCM will enter the long tamper mode. In the long tamper mode, the following actions will occur:

  • The THEFT SYSTEM indicator will flash.
  • The fuel injectors will be shut off for approximately 10 minutes.

Although the vehicle may start, the engine will quickly stall due to a fuel cut-off.

In the event of an open in the serial data communication between the BCM and the PCM, the following actions occur:

  • The PCM will become fail-enabled if the car has already passed theft for that ignition cycle (i.e. the engine is running).
  • The PCM may set the diagnostic trouble codes (DTC).
  • The THEFT SYSTEM indicator will light continuously.
  • The PCM will become fail-enabled for future ignition cycles.

If a failure occurs in serial data before the ignition cycle, while the PCM is not fail-enabled, the PCM will never receive a valid password in order to enable the continued use of the fuel injectors

Brcidd - Engineer That Does Remote Starter Installs on the side.
bluelu00 
Member - Posts: 20
Member spacespace
Joined: January 29, 2008
Location: Minnesota, United States
Posted: January 30, 2008 at 6:55 AM / IP Logged  
According to GM, as long as the car is running when you cut the security wire it does eliminate the security system. If you have the car running when you cut the wire, the car thinks that something happened to it during operation...so it will still allow the car to start. My car starts just fine.
I don't think you guys are understanding the problem here. My remote start works all of the time...as long as it is not really cold out. For instance...2 days ago it was in the 30's around here...my remote start worked great. Yesterday, it was 14 below...the remote starter would start the car and shut it off after about 10 seconds, and it would re-try four more times. The remote starter itself works when it is cold out...it just wont stay running.
Please don't respond to this post with any more comments about my security system, it is fine. The battery has been disconnected and it still starts, it starts with the key....it is not my security system that is causing this. I understand that many of you think a bypass is a better way...but that is not how I did it...and that is not the problem.
I would appreciate any other suggestions.
Twelvoltz 
Platinum - Posts: 2,384
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: March 24, 2005
Location: New Jersey, United States
Posted: January 30, 2008 at 6:58 AM / IP Logged  
How does the RS system know the vehicle is running? Did you hook it up as voltage sensing or tachometer monitoring?
Installer, IT support, and FFL. I need less hobbies.
bluelu00 
Member - Posts: 20
Member spacespace
Joined: January 29, 2008
Location: Minnesota, United States
Posted: January 30, 2008 at 7:22 AM / IP Logged  
I hooked it up as voltage sensing, but I was considering hooking it up as tach...do you think that would help?
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