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basketthis69 
Member - Posts: 48
Member spacespace
Joined: June 16, 2008
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 8:20 PM / IP Logged  
stevdart wrote:

I remember a time being gung ho about  working up a tri-mode setup...get everything I can get out of that one amp, ya know?  But it has drawbacks that cannot outweigh the benefits.  Is yours the very last available amplifier in the world?  Then, if it is the only amplifier there is, you have to squeeze whatever you can out of it.  But it's not, so....

Check out the information on www.bcae1.com, scrolling down to Tri-Mode speaker hookup and then following the link to Tri-Mode Power.  After finding out exactly how it actually works, you'll come to a part "Losing Headroom in a Tri-Mode Operation".  Study that, and then decide if it is so worth it to not have to use a separate mono amp for the sub.

Great info! Great site! Thanks a bunch!
I definitely have a greater perspective of the whole tri-mode setup now. At first I wasn't sure if you were trying to convince me to not try it or to just give me information. If it weren't for the comment "But it has drawbacks that cannot outweigh the benefits." I wouldn't have known. LOL! I definitely see what you're saying.
This definitely explains it all:
phoenix gold hookup extensive . - Page 4 -- posted image.
Is there no way to prevent that without pre-amp electronic crossovers? I think that I am now leaning toward going back to my 6-channel a/d/s/ or a dual-amp setup. From what I get from it, there is no way to prevent losing headroom. Why would Phoenix Gold lead you to believe that this was a possible setup if it were prone to problems and wasn't tested to be stable?
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basketthis69 
Member - Posts: 48
Member spacespace
Joined: June 16, 2008
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 8:27 PM / IP Logged  
haemphyst wrote:
I *totally* missed this thread! Sorry! It's actually quite simple: We'll take the tweeter, first. Above the high-pass crossover point, the amplifier sees the nominal load of the tweeter, 4 ohms or 6 ohms, whatever.
Between the mid-range low-pass, and the mid-range high-pass, the amplifier sees the nominal impedance of the midrange driver, whatever it may be.
Below the woofer's low-pass, the amplifier sees the woofer's nominal impedance.
The bridged subwoofer load is treated just as any other bridged load. Two 4 ohm woofers, wired in series, bridged, presents a nominal 4 ohm load on the amplifier channels.
Outside of the tweeter's passband, the impedance is "infinite". A 4 ohm midrange, 4 ohm woofer, and 4 ohm subwoofer load in parallel with "infinite" is (for all intents and purposes) 4 ohms. The same rule applies with all of the other driver sets within the full range spectrum. If ALL of your drivers are 4 ohms, and they are all passed correctly, the net load on the amp, FULL RANGE is 4 ohms.
LOL! I was typing my post as you posted. LOL! So, let me ask you this. Would it be stable with the 4 ohm load that you gave as an example even without the headroom? I like to listen to my music loud. I am not looking to have alot of bass or too much highs, but just an all-around sound. I was under the impression that this amp could power my subwoofer and all of my door speakers with no problem and it could be LOUD.
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jmelton86 
Gold - Posts: 1,228
Gold spacespace
Joined: February 07, 2007
Location: South Carolina, United States
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 11:39 PM / IP Logged  

Phoenix Gold advertises the Tri-mode setup simple to attract more customers. It makes people think, 'whoa, i can power all my speakers with a 2channel amp! I'll take it.'

They don't realize how much (needs to) goes into the crossover design.

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stevdart 
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Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: September 11, 2008 at 6:02 AM / IP Logged  

I stumbled on my wording.  The drawbacks of tri-mode DO outweigh any benefits that you get from using it.  It may get as loud as you like to listen, but the musical peaks are likely to be clipped.  The dynamic range is thus diminished and the speakers are heat stressed, to boot.

The cost of power in car audio is relatively cheap (read through Steven Kephart's posts).  Simplify the setup and provide plenty of clean power for best sound and longest life.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
basketthis69 
Member - Posts: 48
Member spacespace
Joined: June 16, 2008
Posted: September 11, 2008 at 10:01 AM / IP Logged  
THANKS GUYS FOR ALL OF THE RESPONSES!!
So, after weighing the benefits and drawbacks, I'm not quite sure which way I should go. Some more reading/research (and the last two comments) have me leaning toward a two amp setup. I really want to believe that this Phoenix Gold will do what they claim and that I will have no problems. I see the type of time and investment that it will take and I'm starting to think that it will be more beneficial for me to run a 4-channel and a 2/mono-channel.
My main thing was a new level of difficulty in dealing with 12db "hardwired" crossovers and multiple speakers into two channels (tri-mode). I was also under the impression that I would have great, if not better sound quality than if I were to run for example an Alpine amp. I was really convinced that this was going to be my only amp.
If anyone knows any added benefits to running tri-mode please let me know. For now, I have been swayed and will probably be going with the normal two amp setup. My a/d/s/ will stay in the box for now phoenix gold hookup extensive . - Page 4 -- posted image.. I may use the Phoenix Gold to power one 10" L5 Kicker sub.
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DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: September 11, 2008 at 12:40 PM / IP Logged  

Like I tried to say from the beginning, I do not recommend tri-mode setups as they are almost always disappointing.  If you want to give it a shot, however, go for it.  It's your money, your time, your system.  If you want to play around and learn something give it a shot, no harm no foul as long as you don't blow up the amplifier or the speakers.  If however you really want the best possible sound, then dump the idea of using tri-mode.  In fact, dump that Kleenex Gold amp and put your a/d/s back in as it is a far better amp.  And don't use tri-mode. 

Did I mention not to use tri-mode?  phoenix gold hookup extensive . - Page 4 -- posted image.

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haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: September 11, 2008 at 3:11 PM / IP Logged  
On the other side of the coin, (and I do mean this literally) one of the very best sounding systems I heard early on in my budding audiophile career was a single amplifier... A Soundstream ClassA 100, I believe it was... This was a tri-mode, 4-way setup, and I thought it sounded absolutely fantastic! Three way doors with a single 12. There was nothing in imaging like what I presently have, but for the fact that it is impossible to add any kind of DSP to a passively run system, it was pretty darn convincing.
It was a manufacturer's car, so there WASN'T a shortage of cash flow for the project, the drivers were all timbre matched, sensitivity matched, VERY properly installed, and the crossovers were MASSIVE, and they had about 1200 parts in 'em, between the pair! (That might be a slight exaggeration.) It was ABSOLUTELY a system that *even I* would have been happy to have permanently installed in my car. While the expense is outrageous, the payoff can be FANTASTIC! It can be done, and as DYohn says, "If you want to give it a shot, however, go for it. It's your money, your time, your system". You'll never know until you try!
Did ANYBODY mention the difficulty of doing tri-mode properly?
DYohn wrote:
Did I mention not to use tri-mode? phoenix gold hookup extensive . - Page 4 -- posted image.
I will have to agree in this case. It can be done, but it is tough. Run the doors off the a/d/s/, and use the "Kleenex Gold" for the subs.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
basketthis69 
Member - Posts: 48
Member spacespace
Joined: June 16, 2008
Posted: September 11, 2008 at 6:59 PM / IP Logged  
Thanks for everything you guys have put into this post whether it was to convince me 'to do or not to do'. I'm going to run it to the sub and try to find a decent 4-channel amp for my highs. Preferably an Alpine. The a/d/s/ stays in it's home for now. Even though, it might not be a bad idea........ eventually....
Installer for life.
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