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basketthis69 
Member - Posts: 48
Member spacespace
Joined: June 16, 2008
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 10:47 AM / IP Logged  
jazzcustom131 wrote:
If you wanna do it quick and simple, get two separate amps and perhaps make this venture a hobby for later completion.
To respond to this comment (and a little history on what's going on here), I had a brand new a/d/s/ p650.2 that I was running my whole system with previously. I loved it. I really want to try something different and a little more hands on i.e. installing my own crossover circuits from full-range outputs. The a/d/s/ came with 6-channel output with high and low pass for the front (1&2) and rear (3&4) and low pass for the sub (5&6). I was running mb quart 6 1/2" in the front with separate tweeters so the front was loud phoenix gold hookup extensive . - Page 3 -- posted image.. I had some 3-way 6 1/2" pioneers in the rear. And, for the sub, I was running a Viper (directed) 10" in a vented box. All was running on a 4 gauge power wire and off of a Premier series deck. So, that's just what I could piece together for my Integra. I recently sold the Integra and purchased a Lexus. Now, I want to see if I can step up the difficulty level for this install. I still have the a/d/s/. I think I'm going to frame it and hang it on my wall phoenix gold hookup extensive . - Page 3 -- posted image. LOL! I don't know if I could ever part with that thing after seeing what it could do. I am interested to see what this Phoenix Gold can do and maybe it'll fill a frame on my wall someday too!
Installer for life.
DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 11:24 AM / IP Logged  

basketthis69 wrote:
I am planning on going with kicker components in the front. 3-way 6x9's in the rear. The KS series. I think they're 4 ohm.... I also have a set of 3 inch Alpine type-s that I'm going to replace my dash speakers with. I know that the component set will come with crossovers. I'll just use those for the front doors. But I will need the other crossovers for the dash speakers, rear deck, and sub. Am I right about the way the crossover matches up with ohm load?
I was planning on using 100-120Hz high pass for the front dash speakers.
100Hz high pass for the rear deck 6x9s.
80Hz low pass for the sub.
All with respective ohm loads of course!

First off, the purpose of a passive crossover system is to balance the impedance load on an amplifier by "connecting" only one speaker at a time to the amplifier channel.  So as long as it is properly implemented, a passive crossover will never place less than the lowest speaker impedance on the amplifier.

Second, it is not a good plan to try to use multiple full-range speakers in the front of a vehicle, and definitely not a good -plan to try and develop a crossover to connect them together.  I suggest dumping the dash speakers and concentrate on installing a good quality set of components in your front doors.

I also suggest NOT trying to tri-amp with one amplifier.  Get a separate amplifier for your subwoofer.

And lastly, your suggested Xover points will leave a "hole" in the critical low-bass between 80Hz and 100Hz.  Match the subwoofer low pass to the main speaker high-pass.

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basketthis69 
Member - Posts: 48
Member spacespace
Joined: June 16, 2008
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 11:59 AM / IP Logged  
DYohn wrote:

basketthis69 wrote:
I am planning on going with kicker components in the front. 3-way 6x9's in the rear. The KS series. I think they're 4 ohm.... I also have a set of 3 inch Alpine type-s that I'm going to replace my dash speakers with. I know that the component set will come with crossovers. I'll just use those for the front doors. But I will need the other crossovers for the dash speakers, rear deck, and sub. Am I right about the way the crossover matches up with ohm load?
I was planning on using 100-120Hz high pass for the front dash speakers.
100Hz high pass for the rear deck 6x9s.
80Hz low pass for the sub.
All with respective ohm loads of course!

First off, the purpose of a passive crossover system is to balance the impedance load on an amplifier by "connecting" only one speaker at a time to the amplifier channel. So as long as it is properly implemented, a passive crossover will never place less than the lowest speaker impedance on the amplifier.

Second, it is not a good plan to try to use multiple full-range speakers in the front of a vehicle, and definitely not a good -plan to try and develop a crossover to connect them together. I suggest dumping the dash speakers and concentrate on installing a good quality set of components in your front doors.

I also suggest NOT trying to tri-amp with one amplifier. Get a separate amplifier for your subwoofer.

And lastly, your suggested Xover points will leave a "hole" in the critical low-bass between 80Hz and 100Hz. Match the subwoofer low pass to the main speaker high-pass.

Thanks DYohn and audio!! These replies are helping alot!!
Okay. I know that this is just reiterating what you just said, but I want to make sure that you are suggesting to not replace the factory dash speakers and just leave them unhooked? I was thinking, theoretically, looking at the diagram and seeing that they have hooked a total of 4 speakers to each channel (2 tweets and 2 mids), it wouldn't look any different to the amp if I were to hook up the dash speakers in-line and just do coaxials in the rear. That would give me 4 total speakers on each side... I understand what you are saying, I just want to do this if it's possible.
The only reason I want to attempt this is the diagram that I posted and furthermore the link to the Phoenix Gold site which shows you how to wire up pretty much any system off of this two channel amp. It really got me thinking. It's more of an experiment and if it doesn't sound like I want it to, I can always throw in the a/d/s/. Is there a reason why you wouldn't do what the diagram has laid out? I'm curious now.
I see what you're saying about the crossovers. I wasn't sure. Would you bring the high pass down to 80Hz or would you bring the low pass up to 100Hz?
Thanks again everyone!! Any comments and suggestions are always welcome!
Installer for life.
DYohn 
Moderator - Posts: 10,741
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM / IP Logged  
Hey if you want to try it for the sake of trying it, go for it.  But remember, just because something is possible does not mean it is a good idea.  :)
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forbidden 
Platinum - Posts: 5,352
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Joined: November 01, 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 4:12 PM / IP Logged  
I would bring the lp up to 100hz. The quality of the caps and coils that you choose will make or break the result in the system. Tri-mode if done properly can work great. Sometimes it is alot of playing around with different values of components to get the desired results. If you have the time and the $ to do so, go for it and learn from it.
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
jmelton86 
Gold - Posts: 1,228
Gold spacespace
Joined: February 07, 2007
Location: South Carolina, United States
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 5:45 PM / IP Logged  

basketthis69 wrote:
I still have the a/d/s/. I think I'm going to frame it and hang it on my wall phoenix gold hookup extensive . - Page 3 -- posted image. LOL! I don't know if I could ever part with that thing after seeing what it could do. I am interested to see what this Phoenix Gold can do and maybe it'll fill a frame on my wall someday too!

Wow, these are words of a true audiophile!

Good luck, man. You've got all the right guys helping you out here!

2013 Kia Rio -90a alternator
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Big3 in 1/0G
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basketthis69 
Member - Posts: 48
Member spacespace
Joined: June 16, 2008
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 6:06 PM / IP Logged  
Thanks guys! I've never installed a tri-mode amplifier. I think I'm starting to understand the concept a little more after some research and some reading. You guys have definitely pointed me in the right direction and I think I'm going to give this a shot. I'm a little discouraged by some of the response I've had (including fellow installers that I work with. phoenix gold hookup extensive . - Page 3 -- posted image.), but not enough to stop me from going on with it.
I still have a few questions being as I have wired bridged amps and stereo amps but never a tri-mode, bridged/stereo, at the same time and am a little curious as to what my ohm load should look like for the "mono/bridged" output on the amp and if that effects the stereo ohm load at all. In the diagram provided for example, without the sub wiring connected, the ohm load would be normal stereo output at a certain ohms with the crossovers installed. But, after adding the subs onto the outside channels, will it effect the stereo channels in a way that I would need to check the ohm load in a certain way or does the amplifier see it as three separate outputs (if you look at it as stereo (2) and mono (1))? I am trying to look more into understanding how the amp identifies the different outputs and how it distinguishes between them and whether it "combines" the ohm loads when the sub is added into the equation. If anyone can give me some insight into that, it would help alot.
I do need help with the crossovers that I will be using as Phoenix Gold is recommending that I use 12db slope crossover on every speaker. I know that the component set that I am purchasing is coming with an 18db slope crossover "box". Should I just wire in my own "new" crossovers at 12db slope for the right frequency? That's what I'm considering after reading the owner's manual where it states, (from the link in one of my posts on the first page) "...6db and 18db per octave crossover slopes don't short because they are 'in phase.' However, 6db slopes don't filter the frequencies outside the passed band effectively, and 18db slopes can be cumbersome if not ineffective because the slope varies according to the speaker's impedance. No speakers impedence is a flat 4(ohm) across its frequency range, which means your crossover will not have the slope you expect it to have at a given frequency. In real-world terms that means you have no way of predicting what your crossover slopes will actually look like."
All of that to explain why not to use 6 or 18db crossovers which makes me want to use 12db crossovers.
And, about the 12db slope crossover, "...A 12db per octave crossover (an inductor and capacitor for each speaker) forms a series resonant circuit to ground whose impedance at a particular resonance frequency is determined by the speaker's dynamic impedance at that frequency. If the speaker circuit, for whatever reason, becomes "open" or disconnected, the crossover impedance is theoretically zero (0)--a direct short. Most amplifiers do not like to see this condition, but Phoenix Gold amplifiers are designed to withstand this type of treatment and allow you to use an easy-to-control 12db slope."
So after all of that being said, does a 12db 100Hz low-pass filter have an ohm load of 4 already or does the amp see the ohm load from the actual speaker, or is it all combined making 2 ohms? This is what I really need to figure out before buying my speakers and, yes, after reading all of that I couldn't find the answer!! LOL!!
Installer for life.
jmelton86 
Gold - Posts: 1,228
Gold spacespace
Joined: February 07, 2007
Location: South Carolina, United States
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 6:16 PM / IP Logged  

The amp should be ran at 4ohms, stereo (dash/door speakers) and 8ohms bridged (sub).

This totals out to 2ohms per channel.

I don't know how, I just know I ran tri-mode (most 2channels are tri-mode capable, BTW) a while ago, and had to do the research.

2013 Kia Rio -90a alternator
DDX470HD GTO14001 GTO1014D (x3)
Big3 in 1/0G
1/0G to GTO14001
stevdart 
Platinum - Posts: 5,816
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Joined: January 24, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 7:07 PM / IP Logged  

I remember a time being gung ho about  working up a tri-mode setup...get everything I can get out of that one amp, ya know?  But it has drawbacks that cannot outweigh the benefits.  Is yours the very last available amplifier in the world?  Then, if it is the only amplifier there is, you have to squeeze whatever you can out of it.  But it's not, so....

Check out the information on www.bcae1.com, scrolling down to Tri-Mode speaker hookup and then following the link to Tri-Mode Power.  After finding out exactly how it actually works, you'll come to a part "Losing Headroom in a Tri-Mode Operation".  Study that, and then decide if it is so worth it to not have to use a separate mono amp for the sub.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: September 10, 2008 at 8:01 PM / IP Logged  
jazzcustom131 wrote:
Though what I said holds true, I'm actually curious about varying ohm loads across bridged rails like this... DYohn, Haemphyst, 12volt, Jeff Chilcott (10 other people who I have a lot of respect for)... anyone?
I *totally* missed this thread! Sorry! It's actually quite simple: We'll take the tweeter, first. Above the high-pass crossover point, the amplifier sees the nominal load of the tweeter, 4 ohms or 6 ohms, whatever.
Between the mid-range low-pass, and the mid-range high-pass, the amplifier sees the nominal impedance of the midrange driver, whatever it may be.
Below the woofer's low-pass, the amplifier sees the woofer's nominal impedance.
The bridged subwoofer load is treated just as any other bridged load. Two 4 ohm woofers, wired in series, bridged, presents a nominal 4 ohm load on the amplifier channels.
Outside of the tweeter's passband, the impedance is "infinite". A 4 ohm midrange, 4 ohm woofer, and 4 ohm subwoofer load in parallel with "infinite" is (for all intents and purposes) 4 ohms. The same rule applies with all of the other driver sets within the full range spectrum. If ALL of your drivers are 4 ohms, and they are all passed correctly, the net load on the amp, FULL RANGE is 4 ohms.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
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