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where can i get a quiet automotive relay?


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trevors 
Copper - Posts: 86
Copper spacespace
Joined: April 14, 2008
Posted: August 01, 2009 at 5:50 PM / IP Logged  

dualsport wrote:
It sounds like you have prior experience with working with solid state- so you might reconsider a power transistor.
If your application here is simply switching power on and off, rather than a continuously variable output, it's much easier on the transistor, because it'd be operating in the saturated region, where it actually dissipates relatively low power, even if you're driving it with 20A. The on resistance of power MOSFETs is pretty low, so when it's on, the power is current squared multiplied by the on resistance.
Power transistors are used for continuously variable blower motor control, which draw in the range of 20A; and they do have a hard time when the speed is throttled down to half power, because then the power is divided equally between the motor and the transistor. Lots of heat there to deal with.
With your wiper application, it spends little time in the middle region of the transistors operating area, so it won't heat up anywhere as much as with a variable blower speed control. Should be easy to heat sink it sufficiently to keep it cool.
If you can work out your setup to use a low side drive, it'd be better, because N-channel transistors tend to be better in regard to the on resistance.

Yes, bipolar transistors are old friends of mine.  I've a little experience with FET types, but I'd have to reaquaint myself with their circuit configuration.

Yes, the application is pure ON/OFF and I have bipolars in my parts box that could be used for this application.  I think I'll just limit the current to something under 10A and then just see how things go.  I'll have to think about the MOSFET idea though, it is interesting, just need to include stall current protection.

Guess it's not looking too good for mechanical relays at this point :(!  Thing that's niggling is the factory front wiper internittent column switch I'm using has an internal relay that's perfectly quiet!  And that 25A fused motor drives two wipers, both with larger wipe radii than the rear.

trevors 
Copper - Posts: 86
Copper spacespace
Joined: April 14, 2008
Posted: August 01, 2009 at 6:10 PM / IP Logged  
KPierson wrote:

The "click" of the relay is made by three things - the size of the contacts, the amount of current the coil pulls (and thus the strength of the magnetic coil, and the strength of the return spring.

If you go with a 15A relay your contact size will be smaller, so a higher resistive coil can be used and a lesser return spring.  To my knowledge all 30A bosch style relays are loud - I have never seen a "quiet" one.  I just read a thread somewhere where an installer wrapped a relay in dynamat and it was still too loud.

If you go with a Mosfet get one with an isolated tab (assuming 12v output) and bolt the tab to a ground ground in the car - this will allow you to use the car as the heat sink and should elminate any concerns of heat.  Also, as dualsport alluded to, try to find a mosfet with an extremely low on resistance.  I think this path is definately worth a try as it is fairly cheap and easy and will definately get rid of the noise.

dualsport wrote:
$1.25
Inexpensive enough to experiment with-

Thanks fellows :)!  So those relays are called Bosch style and what I've got is what I can expect!  OK, that's good info and eliminates some wondering.  Looks like I'm going solid state, but I'll try to package the circuit so it can plug into the standard Bosch connector.  That permits easy function restoration should something go amiss.

Always wondered what I'd end up using my supply of 2N3055 TO-3's for, looks like an opportunity to me :)!  Though I'll probably also look into the MOSFET solution as well.

dualsport 
Silver - Posts: 983
Silver spacespace
Joined: September 27, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: August 01, 2009 at 7:59 PM / IP Logged  
Keep in mind the Vce (sat) spec for the 2N3055 shows 3V at 10A, so you'll have quite a bit more heat to contend with. At 4A, it'll drop 1V, for 4W heat dissipation.
Since you already have a stockpile of them, you may as well give it a try it to see if it'll work out.
trevors 
Copper - Posts: 86
Copper spacespace
Joined: April 14, 2008
Posted: August 01, 2009 at 11:47 PM / IP Logged  

dualsport wrote:
Keep in mind the Vce (sat) spec for the 2N3055 shows 3V at 10A, so you'll have quite a bit more heat to contend with. At 4A, it'll drop 1V, for 4W heat dissipation.
Since you already have a stockpile of them, you may as well give it a try it to see if it'll work out.

Yep, the 2N3055 has a high saturation voltage, but it's also a TO-3 which means I'll have to mount it to a plate (probably mount the power tab PNP driver to it as well).  Originally picked up the 2N3055's for Dynaco Stereo 120 repairs, but I've still got four and given typical battery voltage climbs to around 14V when the vehicle's running, I think I can spare the saturation voltage (the intermittent works fine on 12V).  The duty cycle is less than one second in ten, so I'm not worried about normal operating heat.  My only concern is if the motor were to stall.

Yep, I'm gonna give it a shot -- got the circuit finalized and concept bench tested -- nice and clean on the scope.  Now just need to resolve the heatsink/circuit board/mounting/wiring issues -- those and fabrication are usually the time hogs :(.

trevors 
Copper - Posts: 86
Copper spacespace
Joined: April 14, 2008
Posted: August 06, 2009 at 9:00 PM / IP Logged  

Just want to say thanks for the help.  I now know better than to hunt for a quiet auto type relay :)!  I found a couple unmarked TO-3 NPN's in my stash and decided to use one of those instead of a 2N3055 -- so they're saved for another day :)!  I included motor stall protection and here's a photo of the completed module (hopefully, it displays OK).   The wiper control is now dead quiet :)!

where can i get a quiet automotive relay? - Page 3 - Last Post -- posted image.

Oh yes, I tried tightly bundling the mechanical relay and socket in heavy felt like a little football, and the upper frequency sounds are killed, but the lower frequency content still makes it easily audible.

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