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viper 5704 / starting issues


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2therock 
Copper - Posts: 66
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 06, 2008
Location: Georgia, United States
Posted: September 19, 2012 at 6:56 PM / IP Logged  
I am not an installer. I have asked the install shop and the dealership for help but neither can seem to help me. Perhaps some of you have seen this before.
2002 Grand Caravan with key sentry and avatal remote start with key coffin has an attempted theft.
After replacing the factory Skim module and having the dealer flash it I take it to a shop to install a Viper 5704.
The shop used the existing key coffin and at pickup they tell me it will not start with the factory key. They insist its not on their end because the Viper starts it fine.
I bring it home and remove the key from the coffin and lay it on the seat. I remote start the van. I move the key away from the van and it will not remote start.
I attempt to start the van with the factory key, it will not.
I put the key in the coffin, start the van with the Viper remote and drive to the dealer.
I take the key out of the coffin at the dealer and ask them to make sure the keys are all flashed correctly.
He comes back and tells me there is no problem. All three keys start the van.
I try the remote and it fails because of the coffin with no key. I put the key back in the coffin and it remote starts.
I try the keys again and they work.
I come home and later try to start with a key and it will not start.
The remote never fails. What could it be. The engine is throwing codes because of all the attempts to start. The codes are to do with Ignition coils. The dealer reset them.
Does anything jump out at you guys?
auto enhancers 
Copper - Posts: 203
Copper spacespace
Joined: April 09, 2012
Location: Indiana, United States
Posted: September 19, 2012 at 8:40 PM / IP Logged  
So only way to start it is with the rs. Will the key in the box start the vehicle by turning it on the ign.
If you swap out the keys in the box will the rs work.
2therock 
Copper - Posts: 66
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 06, 2008
Location: Georgia, United States
Posted: September 20, 2012 at 12:41 AM / IP Logged  
Thanks, It's 1:30 AM EST here. I'll try it tomorrow and get back.
kreg357 
Platinum - Posts: 7,632
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Security and Convenience. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 30, 2009
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Posted: September 20, 2012 at 7:06 AM / IP Logged  

Almost sounds like the "key in the box" is always ON.  That would allow the R/S to work but a

regular key start wouldn't because the van sees 2 keys at the same time.

What brand / model "key in the box"?

Can you verify the GWR ( aka Viper (-) 200mA Status Output ) connection to the "key in the box"

is correct and working properly?

Soldering is fun!
2therock 
Copper - Posts: 66
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 06, 2008
Location: Georgia, United States
Posted: September 20, 2012 at 10:54 AM / IP Logged  
OK, for some reason I cannot get it to repeat the key starting to work. Yesterday I removed the key from the coffin and it worked but this AM none of the keys will start the van rather a key is in the coffin or not.
Also, the Viper remote works as it should, starting the van with a key in the box, and not starting it if a key is not present in the coffin or ignition. If a key is in the ignition and not the box it starts. The same if reversed.
So, My main issue here is the keys alone will not start the van no matter what. For some reason they worked at the Mopar dealership.
Bad coffin?
Before the theft, and after I replaced the OE Skim, the Avital remote start and the Keys worked.
I go to the shop and leave with a working Viper 5704 and no key starting.
The shop is being very unwilling to get aggressive in finding the issue saying their Viper install works and the issue is mine.
But the Math says I go in with key starting and depart with out key starting. Ugh!
I keep waiting for them to say let us take a look. But they act as if it will be a service they should charge me for to find it, or as if they are as puzzled as I am.
There has been no ill tempers shown, I just keep my mouth shut and cut my losses.
Here is a pic of the coffin and the keys. All this worked fine before the Viper 5704 install.
If you can tell me what to look for I can do it. Thank You.
     
viper 5704 / starting issues -- posted image.
2therock 
Copper - Posts: 66
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 06, 2008
Location: Georgia, United States
Posted: September 20, 2012 at 11:05 AM / IP Logged  
I have a FLUKE meter if needed to check status of the wiring.
Thanks!
2therock 
Copper - Posts: 66
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 06, 2008
Location: Georgia, United States
Posted: September 20, 2012 at 1:48 PM / IP Logged  
Me again. I took a meter to it.
6-Pin Harness:
Red Wire has constant 12v.
Blue Wire has 11.63v until started via remote then .63v.
Pink Wire Not Terminated.
Black Wire goes to ground OK.
Violet Not Terminated.
Green Wire Not Terminated but shows 11.33 all the time.
3 Pin Harness:
RED / BLACK/ Black-White
No voltage but they all ring out no matter what combination I cross them in.
The antenna is oriented correctly circling the front of the OE transponder.
2therock 
Copper - Posts: 66
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 06, 2008
Location: Georgia, United States
Posted: September 20, 2012 at 7:10 PM / IP Logged  
As Gladiator Maximus, Decimus, Meridius would say "Are You Entertained?
Drove the van to get a haircut today. All these starting attempts has had the dash displaying the Engine light icon. The dealer reset it the other day. After trying different scenarios over and over I made it come on again.
I came out from the cut and tried the key, it started...... Argh, I did not dare try it again. I will in the AM when I leave for work.
And the engine light was off.
01ws6/tamu 
Member - Posts: 44
Member spacespace
Joined: December 28, 2010
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: September 20, 2012 at 10:47 PM / IP Logged  
Try this to determine if a OE key was erased and is causing your problem. Use the 2 known good OE dodge keys.
"Customer Learn" Mode
This feature is only available on domestic vehicles or those which have a U.S. country code designator. This procedure requires access to at least two valid Sentry Keys. If two valid Sentry Keys are not available, Sentry Key programming will require the use of a DRB III scan tool.
The steps required to program Sentry Keys with two valid Sentry Keys follows:
    Obtain the blank Sentry Key(s) that need to be programmed. Cut the keys to match the ignition lock cylinder mechanical key codes.
    Insert one of the two valid Sentry Keys into the ignition switch and turn the ignition switch to the ON position.
    After the ignition switch has been in the ON position for longer than three seconds , but no more than fifteen seconds , cycle the ignition switch back to the OFF position. Replace the first valid Sentry Key in the ignition lock cylinder with the second valid Sentry Key and turn the ignition switch back to the ON position. The second valid Sentry Key must be inserted within 15 seconds of removing the first valid Sentry key
    About ten seconds after the completion of Step 3, the indicator light will start to flash and a single audible chime tone will sound to indicate that the system has entered the "Customer Learn" programming mode.
    Within sixty seconds of entering the "Customer Learn" programming mode, turn the ignition switch to the OFF position, replace the valid Sentry Key with a blank Sentry Key transponder, and turn the ignition switch back to the ON position.
    About ten seconds after the completion of Step 5, a single audible chime tone will sound and the indicator light will stop flashing and stay on solid for three seconds and then turn OFF to indicate that the blank Sentry Key has been successfully programmed. The SKIS will immediately exit the "Customer Learn" programming mode and the vehicle may be started using the newly programmed Sentry Key.
These steps must be completed in their entirety for each additional Sentry Key to be programmed. If any of the above steps are not completed in the given sequence, or within the allotted time, the SKIS will exit the "Customer Learn" programming mode and the programming will be unsuccessful. The SKIS will also automatically exit the "Customer Learn" programming mode if:
    It sees a non-blank Sentry Key when it should see a blank.
    If it has already programmed eight (8) valid Sentry Keys.
    If the ignition switch is turned to the OFF position for more than about fifty (50) seconds .
NOTE: If you attempt to start the vehicle while in "Customer Learn" mode (LED flashing), the vehicle will behave as though an invalid key is being used (i.e. the engine will stall after two (2) seconds of running). No faults will be logged.
NOTE: Once a Sentry Key has been programmed to a particular vehicle, it cannot be used on any other vehicle.
© 2012 ALLDATA LLC. All rights reserved.
01ws6/tamu 
Member - Posts: 44
Member spacespace
Joined: December 28, 2010
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: September 20, 2012 at 10:55 PM / IP Logged  
DO THIS FIRST THEN TRY MY ABOVE SUGGESTION. thought about this afterwards.
One other problem could be a bad key coffin. If it tries hitting the skim with the code from the key in the coffin and then you try cranking it with a valid key the skim module see's both keys at the same time gets confused and denies allowing the vehicle to start.
There is one easy way to check this. Go to walmart grab a non theft deterent key for a 94-02 dodge it will have the black head have them cut it to the correct cut for your ignition.
Then go try to start the vehicle with the non theft deterrent key the vehicle should not start. If it does start and run successfully then the key coffin is staying energized or is transmitting everytime the ignition is cycled to on and is causing the problem.
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