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Weird relay problem


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auex 
Platinum - Posts: 5,041
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Joined: December 23, 2002
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: November 13, 2003 at 7:00 PM / IP Logged  
Good luck.
Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
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Teken 
Gold - Posts: 1,492
Gold spacespace
Joined: August 04, 2002
Location: Aruba
Posted: November 14, 2003 at 9:38 PM / IP Logged  
Brian,
If this really bothers you, and you wish to make things as they were. You may try to increase the negative (-) current output by using this simple *step up* relay ground circuit.
87 = (-) Ground
30 = (-) Ground output = To device being turned on.
86 = +12 VDC Constant
85 = (-) Output from alarm CPU *Trigger*
Hope this gives you another alternative to your current situation. Have a great week-end !
Regards
EVIL Teken . . .
auex 
Platinum - Posts: 5,041
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Joined: December 23, 2002
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: November 15, 2003 at 8:25 AM / IP Logged  
If the output won't trigger the relay for the parking lights, why would it trigger one to bump up the amperage?
Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.
I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.
Teken 
Gold - Posts: 1,492
Gold spacespace
Joined: August 04, 2002
Location: Aruba
Posted: November 16, 2003 at 12:47 AM / IP Logged  
Right now he has +12 VDC, and 6 mA coming off of the alarm trigger wire.
The way I am thinking about this circuit is that, the relay only needs the *minimum* amount of *pick up* voltage / current to activate the circuit.
If he had zero voltage, and zero current coming off of the alarm CPU, then I wouldnt even have suggested it.
The worse case is that it doesn't work, and that doesnt change his situation anyworse than it is now.
LOL, then again... It could be all the wasted sweat equity he has invested in trying all these things during the last 3 days ! Weird relay problem - Page 3 -- posted image.
Regards
EVIL Teken . . .
briandors 
Member - Posts: 45
Member spacespace
Joined: August 29, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 16, 2003 at 1:08 AM / IP Logged  

My thought kind of mimics auex.  If there's not enough current to trigger a relay, there's not enough to trigger that kind of relay regardless of whether the relay is being used in a "traditional" or polarity reversing role.  If someone knew of a relay that was designed to trigger at much lower currents than "standard" SPDT auto relays I might try that.  Otherwise, it's getting cold, I'm sick of lying on my back under the dash, and using the 3rd aux output more or less takes care of the issue.

Thanks guys, it was a learning experience and I owe both of you a big thank you!

Detective 
Member - Posts: 5
Member spacespace
Joined: November 17, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 20, 2003 at 4:09 PM / IP Logged  

In regards to not enough current to trigger the first relay why would it trigger "booster" relay? Hey it can be true and is. In fact I have seen many scenarios where one didn't work but two did! Not all relays are the same but we hardly see the different wierd ones when we are working with aftermarket stuff. I have worked with all kinds of brand of relays and have found that some will engage the coils with as little as 100ma and others don't budge untill almost 500ma. Most systems are designed to push a relay of about 300ma (a number you've probably seen many times in wiring manuals), however there can be a deterioration of that output over time. And once again I speak from experience. Although somewhat rare you may see a vehicle who's locks or "other" worked fine for a few weeks or even a few months to only find its way back into your shop. The average tech will swap out the unit and all is well. The educated tech will want to investigate and soon they will find that although they still see an output from the unit it seems to be a little short of the mark. So they add an "amplification " relay (the proper term) and Ta Da everything works great again.

So Brian, since you have already changed relays (by the way you don't need to change the wiring, either way is O.K. for this application) the question is did you end up going up in amperage or staying the same? Is your output deteriorated to the point of no return, or can you step down to a lower amperage and get things to work again?

There is one other  thing you might try---a spike diode across the coil. Place a 1 amp diode with the cathode (stripe side) attached to the 12V(+) on your coil contact and the anode (long side) to the negative trigger wire from the unit where it connects to the relay. I know it looks like it doesn't do anything this way but it is correct.  

I can't say for sure why your lights stopped flashing, all indicators say they shouldn't have. The last thing you might do (not to offend) is check your connections. Not just visually. I have techs who tell me "yeah I got 12V going to my line", or "yeah my door wire is connected", but they never put their hands on the lines or pull them off to check physically the contact they believe they have. Most fixes are usually the easy overlooked item so don't give yourself a headache thinking too much into this. Look for the easy stuff. Let logic prevail. 

auex 
Platinum - Posts: 5,041
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: December 23, 2002
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: November 20, 2003 at 5:41 PM / IP Logged  
Let logic prevail? Ok, if briandors measured correctly, there is only 6ma of current. Now you said that you have seen relays only take 100 ma of current(which I fully agree with). With that said, have you ever seen a relay take less then 10ma to activate(relay, not transistor)? Chances are something in the brain went bad, causing the brain to no longer send enough current to activate the relay. Also it was stated that he could send the brain back to dei and they probably would just fix it no questions asked.
Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.
I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.
jhunter 
Member - Posts: 4
Member spacespace
Joined: November 17, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 28, 2003 at 3:18 PM / IP Logged  

sometimes dei units fry the terminal coming out of the module, pull the white wire ( pin and all ) out of the module, use a small screwdriver to scrape any residue of the t\module terminal, then take and unplug any of the other wires in that harness that is not being used and remove it and put it in the parking light slot and give that a try.

youngblood 
Copper - Posts: 77
Copper spacespace
Joined: September 22, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: November 28, 2003 at 3:29 PM / IP Logged  
I could have been skimming a scoche to quickly, but would you do me a favor and tell me what vehicle you're working on, and what color wire this relay fed 12 volts to>?  It would be most helpful... this whole relay configuration could be correct, I don't know of many negative fed parking lights that work when feeding 12 volts to them..... quite the contrary actually.  Thanks in advance for your speedy reply.
impedance2low 
Member - Posts: 2
Member spacespace
Joined: November 28, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 03, 2003 at 1:28 PM / IP Logged  

The current (~6ma) measured with your multimeter while it was in series with alarm output is not the max achievable current of this output.  That was merely what was being drawn at that moment.  Current only draws what is required, so at any given time the measurement is going to give a reading which reflects what the output's connected device is doing......So if you measured this wire open or even through the coil of a relay it is not telling you that 6ma is all it puts out.

I read all posts twice and I have been wondering ...Do you also have Parking lights hooked up to this wire?  If so, do they work?  Also......what is the jumper on the DEI unit set at (-) or (+)?  or is the jumper missing?  (That is what I suspect might be the problem.)

If you have more devices (lights, or relays) hooked up to this wire, you need to isolate them from each other using diodes.

Good Luck

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