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circuit breaker box


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Teken 
Gold - Posts: 1,492
Gold spacespace
Joined: August 04, 2002
Location: Aruba
Posted: December 29, 2003 at 4:58 PM / IP Logged  
Overcranked23 wrote:
OK I think that you Teken are not getting this
I comprehend the the reason. I do not know the why, simple as that.
Overcranked23 wrote:
ITS A FUSE BOX instead of fuses I am using breakers
Yes it is a fuse box, with PRESET current loads. You cannot change the *value(s) of the circuit to protect the equipent, can you . . .
Overcranked23 wrote:
What the heck is the difference I am not going to use the breaker as a switch just a place to get power from.... How is this different than a fuse box that you pull power from???
OK, I guess I have to spell it out for you... ANY circuit MUST be properly fused. So based on that one circuit and the level of current *ALLOWED* to flow you will place the proper amperage fuse in there.
You will not simply grab a fuse box that has pre-set 20 amp breakers for a unit that requires 35 amps, or 60 amps...
Will you???
Overcranked23 wrote:
and if you could answer the question of how to set up some of the breakers as switch power that would really be help full
Please read the first quote from me. Which I stated how and where. The specific circuit would be up to you.
Overcranked23 wrote:
and if I blow my car up I will tell you and everone else that I blew my car up you where right and I was wrong
You know... If I really didnt care about you, or your equipment, do you really think I would have wasted all this time writing you???
I am the only person you will ever meet that will tell you exactly what I am thinking straight out. As I have done so, not once, not twice, but 3 times...
I have also given you analogies as to the why . . . And have also stated to you there are other alternatives to doing the job right....
Noone is stopping you from doing what you wish... The decision is up to you, regardless of what I, or anyone else thinks is right...
Some people have to learn the hard way... That is fine, that is part of the learning process... I would prefer to impart others with the small amount of personal and hands on experience so others will NOT make the same mistakes I, or anyone else has...
Does this make sense????
Regards
EVIL Teken . . .
xetmes 
Silver - Posts: 586
Silver spacespace
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posted: December 29, 2003 at 6:52 PM / IP Logged  

I dont think you can get breaker boxes like in a house for your vehicle... Maybe you can modify a small MLO box lol... I still dont understand why you want multiple breakers but to each his own. You could always buy the breakers and possible fabricate something..? What kind of breakers are you looking at? Link?

Overcranked23 
Copper - Posts: 67
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 21, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 29, 2003 at 7:03 PM / IP Logged  

No link but parts express has the breakers they are not just one size the breakers come in 20 30 and 40 amp loads I had also plan on putting some fuses fin the box That I plan to fabricate seeing how I work in a metal shop the breakers will match the amperage so if the item being fused is in need of a 30 amp fuse it will have a 30 amp breaker instead... Somewhere down the line I think that I was labeled clueless!!!!! 

I understand your point Teken but I know how this works the fusible item will have the proper amperage breaker....

But I do not know is how if I am taking the power off the battery directly is how to make some of the breakers live only after the key is turned on to ignition... Please help on this if you can ? 

don't fowl the track
xetmes 
Silver - Posts: 586
Silver spacespace
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posted: December 29, 2003 at 9:18 PM / IP Logged  
hmmm i dont really think you can make them active only after starting unless you isolate them with a relay or some other switching circuit most SPDT auto relays can handle 30/40 A you can place multiple in parallel for greater current requirements, then trigger the relays with the IGN...
Overcranked23 
Copper - Posts: 67
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 21, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 30, 2003 at 6:07 PM / IP Logged  

so a relay can only handle 30 to 40 amps what ever its rated for! so if I wanted somthing to switch it would have to b 30/40 amps or find a relay with bigger amperage?

How would you trigger the relay off of an ign fuse? Is there another way to do this?

Would running the relays lower the impdeance of what ever item is getting power off of the breaker

Thanks for your help

don't fowl the track
mikeshonda750 
Copper - Posts: 105
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 03, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 30, 2003 at 11:09 PM / IP Logged  

Maybe.. just MAYBE if you posted exactly what your intent is.... teken and the rest of the gang can show you a way to do it.

As i understand it from reading the 1st post a dozen times and several quotes and replies.. you are going to hook up several high current items to be on ONLY when the ignition is in the ON position. You want to instead of putting a simple blade fuse in-line to protect your circuts, hook up a circut breaker, so if something goes wrong, or too much current is being drawn, it will pop the breaker, and you can simply throw the breaker the other direction and make it live again.

One thing you are failing to realize, is, if you blow a fuse/ trip a breaker, the solution is NOT to put a new fuse in, or toss the breaker back on and go about your buisness. Something is either drawing too much current than the rated fuse or something is shorted out.

Just like in a house, if a breaker trips, its not because its an old peice of sh*t, its because something came on (compressor/Oven/Washing machine) that was drawing TOO much current than what the breaker/fuse/wiring was designed to handle, or, there is a short somewhere and by simply flipping the switch, you did NOTHING but turn the power back on long enough for it to do it again.

Lets say you wanna hook up 50 100w lights(example) all over your truck. Well, if you tie all these 50 lights into the same power wire, protected by a single 30 amp fuse. running off of the same switch... your gonna pop the fuse, espicially as ground wires wear out, bulbs wear in, ext.

The soloution is: Wire up several 30/40 amp relays, to be triggered off of the same switch (your IGN wire in this case). Run several power wires to the battery, all seperately fused. So now, when you turn the ignition ON, the several relays you wired up are drawing very little juice, they throw the relay, and POW.... all of your lights just came on. There is a mathmatical conversion that will help you figure out how many relays to use depending on how much current is needed.

That was all just a huge example... so dont go off on me for dodging your question, yadda yadda yadda....

If you have many things, all seperately fused, wired directly off of your ignition wire, your still going to blow fuses/trip breakers/burn wire because the ignition wire cannot supply all the devices with enough power, so it blows the fuse(S) or trips the breaker(S) or burns the wire(S).

Like i said in the beginning, explain exactly what you are trying to do instead of giving a vauge idea and being resistant on peoples opinions.

Tell us: Guys, im trying to hook up my 19' western plow w/100watt strobe lights so it has power when the ignition is on. Im also trying to get my fog lights/ CB w/10000watt amp + Laptop's AC inverter + cell phone charger to come on the same.

These guys are fantastically smart! If you give more details, the more likely they can help

mikeshonda750 
Copper - Posts: 105
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 03, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: December 30, 2003 at 11:28 PM / IP Logged  

Sorry if i got too in depth there. Your soloution is not breakers, Your solution is relays.... the relay does exactly what its named for.. it relays power... it takes a small ammount of power... relays it along so its bigger brother can carry the load. so... when you apply power(ignition) to one side, and ground to another side, it will flip a switch and allow the other 2 pins of the relay to make contact... here you have your high current wire, ran from the battery, and on the other side of this "switch" you have high current output. When the ignition power is shut off, the switch releases, and the current flow from big brother stops, and the circut is dead.

85 to IGNwire 86 to ground (85+ 86-) ~  87 to battery(fused) ~ 30 to whatever your tryin to power up. Soooo.. with the key OFF ... 87 and 30 make no contact...  when you turn the key ON.... a small ammount of current is sent through the relay, flipping the switch ... taking the +12V from the battery and allowing it to travel across the relay to pin 30, completing your circut and powering up your devices.

Hope this helps, let us know, sorry for the replies like this.. but i confused myself with my 1st post = )

Teken 
Gold - Posts: 1,492
Gold spacespace
Joined: August 04, 2002
Location: Aruba
Posted: December 31, 2003 at 5:44 PM / IP Logged  
mikeshonda750 wrote:
your still going to blow fuses/trip breakers / *burn wire* because the ignition wire cannot supply all the devices with enough power,
This is the primary reason, which I did not write out, nor do I think I had too, as it is a given.
As I stated before, if you run the appropiate size *guage* of wire FROM the primary battery, which is fused within 12" from the battery.
You can THEN, feed the breaker box input side. Then from there branch off to supply the other current devices which you want to control / resettable fuse(s) on.
I could get very technical as to the whys, if, and buts about the difference in a breaker box and that of a standard ATO blade style fuse.
But I wont . . .
I will however, tell you that the rate of expansion. AKA break over point of the breaker style fuse is longer in duration, slower in reaction, and not consistent in operation.
ie.
The breaker style fuse box will allow more current to pass through in a given period of time, prior to tripping.
Why is this important to know? Because, in the most simple analogy. Imagine a hair thin wire, say it can pass aprox. 1 amp for extended operations without fault.
Then you place a 10 amp load on that same single hair thin wire. The breaker style box would allow the 10 amps to pass for several seconds, to minutes before ever tripping, and the wire would instantly vaporize !
Now imagine the 1000 stands of wire inside a insulating material. What do you think will happen to some of those little stands over time?
Some of them would be instantly vaporized, and others would be fused together. Now the wire which you believe to be rated for XXX amount of amps, is only capable of a fraction of what it previously was capable of . . .
But you wont know this, if and when the breaker trips, as it is not a quick blowing fuse. And it will continue to allow an excess of 30% of current draw to be allowed to be supplied and fed through the wiring that is NOT capable of transfering the required current.
In closing, any installer, engineer, or hobbyist, shall design a circuit that starts with proper consideration
as to HOW MUCH current will flow through the circuit, and will place in line the appropiate fuse which *IS THE RATED CURRENT TO PASS THROUGH* not the when it will blow.
I hope this is clear to anyone who wishes to go this route.
There are 1001 ways to do anything, this so happens to be, *NOT* one of them . . . In the current scenerio laid out before us...
Regards
EVIL Teken . . .
Overcranked23 
Copper - Posts: 67
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 21, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: January 01, 2004 at 8:03 AM / IP Logged  

Now we are getting somewhere

Explaination is a two way street!

I did not relazwe that a breaker will not "break as quick as a blade style fuse.So why do you use breakers in automotive apps then? then how if breakers are not the answer here do you suggest a way to create a power acess point in vechile that can taped at any time for power?

Thanks for getting this back on track

Nick

don't fowl the track
Teken 
Gold - Posts: 1,492
Gold spacespace
Joined: August 04, 2002
Location: Aruba
Posted: January 01, 2004 at 5:43 PM / IP Logged  
Overcranked23 wrote:
I did not relazwe that a breaker will not "break as quick as a blade style fuse.
You do now . .
Overcranked23 wrote:
So why do you use breakers in automotive apps then?
I would stress to you that SOME people use them, not all. Those who use them in their vehicles have done so properly, and have actually purchased the proper magnetic breaker, which has the same performance and rate of speed in terms of break-over point as a standard quick blowing fuse.
You get what you pay for, literaly . . .
There 3 types of breakers in the open market. Magnetic, thermo, and thermo-magnetic.
The one's you see for house use are magnetic, and the cheaper audio ones you see are also the same. The higher end units are both magnetic and bi-metal composits which make it a thermo unit as well.
One of the other things you may not be aware of is that each time the breaker is tripped.
The resistance within the contacts will increase. This will cause one of several things to occure. Either the breaker will become unstable and trip all the time, or it will simply fuse itself to the closed position.
I dont have to tell you what will happen if it remains closed, now do I . . .
Overcranked23 wrote:
then how if breakers are not the answer here do you suggest a way to create a power acess point in vechile that can taped at any time for power?
Using a fused power distribution block . . .
===================================================
Nick, at the end of the day you can make the breaker box you want to use, work.
But you will have to add in more fuses in the system, which really negates the IDEA & intentions you have.
ie. No matter what you do with the breaker box, the primary wire leading to the breaker box INPUT side from the (+) positive side will have to be fused within 12" of the terminal.
Just the 100+ amp fuse and the holder will cost you aprox. $15.00. You then have to buy the appropiate 2-4 guage wire which will cost you another $0.85 to 1.25 a foot per wire.
From there, all the output side of the breaker box will have to be again EACH seperately fused with the appropiate size of ATO quick blowing fuse along with a the appropiate power distribution block or independant fuse holders.
So the XXX dollars you just invested into the breaker box to have a certain amount of *resettable* convience is actually negated.
The bottom line is this. If you research and confirm the current demands of the units you wish to supply power. Then install the appropiate wire size, and in line of that supply it is fused accordinly, the cirruit will never fail.
Nor will it blow fuses ever. The only time it will blow a fuse is if there is something wrong.
ie. A dead short or a electrical failure within the unit(s)
An over current situation should not be a factor, since eveything is presumed to be working properly. If this wasnt the case, then dont you think all the fuses in your car would be the resetable one?
In the field it is called CFK (circuit failure knowledge)
A person is more apt to consider the reason WHY, a fuse blew, prior to replacing the fuse into the circuit, opposed to having a resettable breaker box.
Because there is nothing to see, or hold in ones hand to force them to consider the fault, before them...
Conisder your options, consider the circuit, and consider what has been laid before you.
At the end of the day, the choice is yours...
Regards
EVIL Teken . . .
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