Dissatisfied with Alpine Amps

However, when it comes to real world experience, I'm still a noob, so maybe it's just me and not the amps.

I started off with a very simple upgrade for my 2004 Honda Civic 4 door sedan by replacing the factory head unit and speakers with an Alpine CDM-9823 and 2 pairs of Infinity Reference 6.5" coaxials.  As someone who had never owned an aftermarket system, I thought it sounded great.  In fact, everyone who rode in the car (casual listeners, not audiophiles), commented as to how crisp and clear the system sounded.

Of course that just made me want more, so I decided to have a 4 channel Alpine MRV-F240 installed.  That's where the trouble began.  Instead of improving the overall sound, it degraded it.  The same people who commented on how crisp and clear the previous system had sounded were equally unimpressed.

That led me to a series of equipment upgrades over the course of the next year that resulted in my current setup:

Eclipse CD 8443 Head Unit (8v preouts), JL Audio CSI-650 components up front (60W RMS), JL Audio CSX-650 coaxials on the rear deck (60W RMS), Alpine Type S 10" sub in a sealed box (300W RMS), and a 5-channel Alpine MRV-450 amp powering it all (4 x 50W RMS, 1 x 200W RMS).

I've done extensive research online.   I've set my gains using a multimeter.  I've set the equalizer using a SPL meter. I've tried time correction, different crossover frequencies, and virtually every other tuning trick I've read about.  Obviously, I've seen significant inprovements in some areas, but overall, I'm still not as happy as I was with my initial entry level setup.

I don't understand how that could be possible, so I must be doing something wrong.

As far as installs go, there the JL Audio CSI-650 woofers are mounted in the door locations, but they're attached to the door using plastic spacers that came with the Infinity coaxials, and the spacers were cut up in order to make them fit.  (That was the "professional" installer, not me).  I'm going to replace the damaged plastic spacers with MDF spacers and deaden the doors with dynamat.

The tweeters are installed properly (according to the JL Audio manual) near the top of the door panel, and are less than 12" from the woffers, so I'm not going to make any changes there. 

As far as wiring is concerned, the original installer ran 18 gauge speaker wire from the amp to the wiring harness behind the head unit and then spliced into the factory speaker wiring.   The power and signal cables all run along the passenger side.   I can wire the speakers to the amp directly using 16 gauge wire, and I can move the power cable to the driver side of the car, but from what I've read, that probably won't make much of a difference since I'm not hearing any alternator whine.

That leads me to the equipment, and the only common denominator in all of the various setups I've tried is the Alpine amps.   They're the only amps I've owned, so I have no basis for comparison.  However, the biggest improvement in sound I've gotten so far came when I turned off the crossovers on the MRV-450 and started using the crossovers on the Eclipse.  Also, I just have a gut feeling that I'm not getting the power I'm supposed to be getting.  The subchannel is supposed to put out 200w RMS which should be enough to feed the 300w RMS Type S sub, but the sub barely moves unless I have the gains set way higher than they should be and then I get distortion.

So now I'm on the verge of replacing the Alpine MRV-450 with a JL Audio 500/5, but before I spend (and possibly end up wasting) the extra money, I wanted to get some feedback from this forum.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to give as much information as possible.  Any comments or suggestions (other than going back to my original setup!) would be greatly appreciated.

Teamrf:  I've heard the same thing with respect to the newer Alpine amps.   The example you gave of the Alpine 1000/1 appearing to be outperformed by the JL Audio 500/1is a good example of why I'm thinking that I might not be getting the kind of power I should be getting from the Alpine.

Ocuriel:  It's a sealed box.  Alpine shows the recommended volume for a sealed box to be between .65 and 1.5 cu ft with an optimum of 1.0 cu ft.  It's been awhile since I took the exact measurements of the box, but it's around 1.25 cu ft.  The sub is a dual voice coil and the amps subchannel rating is 200W  RMS @ 4 ohms.  Again, it's been awhile, but I did make sure the sub was a 2 ohm DVC and that it was wired properly to produce a 4 ohm load.

I've tried similar crossover points to what you suggested.  In the Eclipse's normal mode, I'm limited to one crossover point with a 12 db slope.  I've found that 100 Hz seems to work best in that mode.  In Pro Mode, I can set the crossover points seperately for the front, rear, and sub and I can choose between a 6db and 24 db slope.  The only drawback is that Eclipse designed the Pro Mode to be used with at 3 way setup, so the front channels can't be crossed over any lower than 200 Hz.   In Pro Mode, I've found that 200Hz HP with a 6 Db slope on the front and rear and 200Hz LP with a 24 db slope on the sub works best.

It's possible that I am expecting too much for the kind of power that I have, but what I don't understand is why I was so much happier with a setup that had NO external power and no sub.   Being able to hit the low notes is nice, but I can't seem to get back to the clarity and smooth sound that I had with the my original entry level setup.

Unless components are broken, I am afraid to say this sounds like user error. Do you know 100% how to set a gain? Are you 100% that all speakers are wired in phase?

I would start by setting every thing flat, x-overs, eq's, etc.

Then go to your front speakers only, either disconnect the rear and sub rca's or speaker wires. Tune this strictly with the amp, for now (be sure the deck has nothing on). The above advice is sound and is a good spot to start w/ x-over points. Don't worry about eq's or bass boost. The rear speakers should be done in the same manner. Now that you have your interior speakers done right, with a high pass x-over set between 80-100hz (not set in stone), address the sub.

Gain first, turn volume up to the point just before distortion on interior speakers, then bring the gain for the sub up to distortion and then back it off a hair. Activate the low pass filter, around 100-80hz.

If all else fails, take it to the pro's and pay to have it done right!

Your speaker selection probably has the most dramatic effect on the quality of your sound, much more so than the amps.  Even when powered by lots of watts, sub-par speakers are still going to sound sub-par.  I'm not suggesting your current speakers are not considered decent speakers, but "good sound" is subjective and varies from person to person.  You might audition some new speakers in your local shop to swap out for your JLs, maybe even Infinitys from the line you liked so much initially.  As for the sub, you could give it more watts (never a bad idea), but since you were happy without a sub, you don't necessarily "need" more power.  The sub should at least be able to overpower your components without distortion.  Make sure all your wiring is good (especially your power and ground wires) and your speakers are in phase.  Also make sure you do not have air leaking from your sub box.  It's also possible your amp may need repair.

Sometimes it is hard to be perfectly happy with any system, especially once you have been bitten by the car audio bug and are always looking for ways to improve your sound.

Man, if that ain't the truth. I remember when two 10's and 180watts used to make me giddy...now days my subs make my hair move, and I'm like, "Man...I need more bass...".