Thoughts on High End Mids/Tweets?

Please, if you have time, list what equipment one would need to design a crossover properly. 

I'm not talking world class equipment, but equipment that would get a diyer 90% of the way.

Correct me if I'm totally wrong, but wouldn't this just include:

1) Parts Express USB woofer tester and software;

2) M-Audio USB MobilePre (mic amp and soundcard);

3) Behringer ECM8000 Mic;

4) SoundEasy Loudspeaker Design Software.

All this can be had for under $500.  The end result certainly won't be world class, but if done correctly one should be able to obtain decent results.  Lots of diy enthusiasts build speakers that measure reasonably flat with little more.... 

<sarcasm>Those fools!  Disband the diy loudspeaker community!  Revoke crossover design licenses around the world if you aren't a world class E.E. with a speaker build house in Chile and a Praxis rig.</sarcasm> 

What our friend is talking about should be even easier.  He can use ultra steep digital crossovers and the active unit will fix any frequency response and timing problems. 

Steven, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I'm a little disappointed to see you discouraging what could be a very satisfying diy project for the original poster.  By the way, I continue to be a huge fan of Adire's drivers.  This past fall I built the 2641 kit and it sounds amazing.  Kudos to all of you at Adire / Exodus / etc.  You've probably seen it, but my review is below:   http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=23298

2.  That number sounds quite steep.  And I question the "acceptable" part.  I bet under proper scrutiny 90% of them would prove to be less impressive than the builders claim.

3.  I totally agree.  That is why I am sharing what I have learned on this topic, hoping to feed that thirst a little bit.

5.  If my comments sound like discouragment, it is because I believe he is undertaking a very large project and I want him to understand the enormity of it.  Would you encourage an admirer of the Sistine Chapel to attempt to paint a masterpiece with promises that he could acomplish the task?  What are you saying about the true artistic masters when you say that anyone can do it? 

2)  Yes, I'm sure 90% are less impressive than the builders claim.  However, I'd be willing to bet that same 90% sounds better than your average Best Buy HTIAB garbage. 

3)  O.k.  ....  so now that you've scared him a bit, how about listing what he'd need to obtain and what he'd need to read to start learning.  Remember, everyone needs to start somewhere.

4) I did not say anyone could create an artistic masterpiece, did I?  I merely said he should go for it, and he'll probably get results that are acceptable (not crap) if he's willing to do his homework.  Note that this detracts -nothing- from true masters such as Dan.  I followed your advice and bought 3 Exodus kits, rather than build my own, because I wanted gauranteed results.  You gave me good advice, I consider the kit 61 and kit 2641 masterpieces, for the money.  I'm confident I couldn't have obtained the same results by now.

However, for my next speakers I'm sure I'm going to try branching out with my own designs.  DIY is about more than obtaining masterpiece results.  Only fools expect to obtain masterpiece results from their first projects.  DIY is about fun, learning, and the satisfaction of plugging those binding posts in for the first time and not seeing smoke.  DIY is about sitting there knowing, "I made that!" 

To summarize:

Remember, even Michelangelo was a DIYer at some point.  In fact, he thought his work on the Sistine Chapel wasn't good enough and that he shouldn't be painting it.  He thought a true master of painting should have been commissioned for that job.  Indeed, a few "masters" of the time complained that the ceiling wasn't as polished, detailed, and finished with enough ultramarine and gold. 

You didn't answer my question re: the beginners kit to crossover building.  What else would the beginner need than the items on my list?

1) Parts Express USB woofer tester and software;

2) M-Audio USB MobilePre (mic amp and soundcard);

3) Behringer ECM8000 Mic;

4) SoundEasy Loudspeaker Design Software.

This has been an interesting discussion.  IMO Vance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook is a must have for any DIY speaker builder, especially when one is just starting out.  Invaluable knowledge in the book, as well as some really excellent DIY designs to use or modify to suit your needs.  If you want to buy one, order it HERE and the12volt.com gets a little kick-back from Amazon!

I say go for it.  As long as you realize that most text-book crossovers (i.e. ones produced using standard calculators) may or may not sound the way you expect and you are willing to experiment and do some testing (you have sufficient tools) building passive crossovers is a lot of fun.  I love to experiment and see how many different ways I can make a set of speakers sound by tweaking the crossovers.

Also, do not discount the quality of the crossovers provided by manufacturers of higher-end component sets.  I have been very impressed lately with the factory passives shipped with a set of Eclipse comps I installed in my vehicle.  Very detailed and accurate.  I do not think I could have done better.

Oops, I'll see about getting that link fixed.

I use True Audio's TrueRTA software ( http://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm) and a Behringer ECM8000 microphone ( http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-625) and a Dell laptop computer with a full-duplex sound card to take measurements of speaker output.  Then I can tweak crossovers to tame peaks, etc.  Lots of folks like free Speaker Workshop or similar software (like the pro-level and very much NOT free Praxis) because it allows you to model crossovers before you build them.  This method saves time and is preferred for manufacturers.  For hobbyists, as long as you don't mind wielding the soldering iron and buying a batch of components, trial and error is more time consuming but equally satisfying when results are achieved.

I pulled my post, bogey, because I finally realized that I was just running interference and don't have much value to add to this discussion.  But not before you saw it, obviously.  The busybody in me thought this thread may have veered off course a bit in regards to what you were asking.  The assumption that you were referring to a 3-way system plus sub, for example.  And DYohn is encouraging you to go ahead with this but talking about passives...whereas I thought you were considering all active.  Most of the gear you have expressed an interest in or already own is out of my league, and actives is an area I know extremely little about. 

What I wanted to do, though, is try to get to the basics of what you are trying to accomplish.  That starts with what you are listening to now and what you feel is needed to improve it.  Your last post indicates that you are now listening to one set of MBQs, powered by a Butler amp and no subwoofer.  (The bunches of brand names that interspice this thread tends to confuse things, at least to me.)  You are not satisfied with the current sound and want to improve it.  Right away, I see an obvious lack of musical frequencies/dynamics by not having the subwoofer installed.  That addition would enhance the mids and help a lot with SQ.  There are other install issues that may be tweaked, too, like damping in the doors, rear deck and trunk areas.  Altogether creating a great improvement in sound quality.

In summary it's this, at least from my perspective:  do you have a complete system installed, as well as it possibly can be, and are able to pick it apart for flaws that you would like to correct with your next system incarnation?