kfr01 wrote:
| I seem to have caught the home audio bug now too. Please help me plan the system. I'm not so much looking for specific product / brand recommendations as I am looking for priorities and tips about what is BS / what isn't / what works / what doens't. I think I've been able to "take up" a decent amount of this information in the car audio world in a relatively short time period, but home audio seems like an entirely different thing.
Here's my current situation:
Source: Computer running Winamp, m-audio sonica (renamed to transport). Most of my music is encoded in 320kbps after being extracted with EAC and run through error checks. I plan to slowly reconvert the CD's with great quality to begin into a lossless format. I currently use the MAD 24-bit mp3 upconverter plug-in. The sonica passes 24-bit PCM to the Receiver: Marantz 4200. This is a nice little <$500 ht receiver. It sounds comparatively horrible unless I have it on "source-direct" mode. The bass management circuitry really takes the smoothness out of the music. Everything sounds thin unless source direct is on.
Amplifier: Onkyo Integra M504. This was a recent gift and a great addition to my system. It has far more power than I need given my listening habits. It sounds slightly more smooth than the Marantz's amplifier.
Speakers: Polk RTA 12B loudspeakers. These things are considered "vintage" by polk. They have a 1" top mount, open-baffle tweeter, 2 6" midrange drivers and a 10" passive radiator. Coming from all sat/sub HT systems in the past the nice smooth transition from the midrange to bass is blowing me away. I love it. I bet this is probably the first time I haven't had an appeciable gap from 100-200hz. Also, there's none of the boom I've always heard on my sat/sub systems of the past (all cheap stuff... $300 mtx, $250 CV, $300 polk, etc.) I don't miss the boom one bit. Love it. |
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First off, if it is possible, (and as far as space is concerned, it should be possible - space being the cheapest thing in a computer today) try re-extracting the MP3's you have RIGHT TO the lossless format of choice. Once the information is gone, you cannot recover it, and that being the case, you might as well listen to the MP3's you already have. An additional conversion at this stage can only hurt the music you already have. My choice, BTW, is
flac. I like the flac for two reasons... 1)it is free and 2) when you install the front-end, it adds the plug-in to winamp, so you can keep the really cool interface. (I just re-read your opening post - forget almost everything I just said
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Secondly, anytime you can remove active electronics from the signal path, there will be sonic benefits, which is what I think the "source direct" does. The Onkyo amplifier probably affects the way the speakers sound in more ways than one - first off, more real power, and secondly (and I'll likely be mocked here) better damping.
kfr01 wrote:
| Anyway, now that I've caught the bug I'm looking for more. Obviously. Here are my complaints about the current system.
1) While the bass is more smooth and transitions much better than my old sat/sub systems, the bass actually gets a tad sloppy and rolls off a tad earlier than I'd like it to. Example. I hear the bass being plucked on a Diana Krall CD. The bassist is coming down the musical scale. Higher frequency bass is nice and clean - nice fresh notes and plucks. However, as he reaches the lower frequencies the notes start running together and getting quieter. Also, the midrange quality degrades slightly when the drivers are also attempting to produce these lower bass notes.
2) Sometimes the highs are a little too forward for my tastes. They aren't bad at all (by my low standard :-) but sometimes the cymbal just doesn't sound exactly like a cymbal. This was a problem on some cheaper polk bookshelves and some mtx mtms I had from the sat/sub system. |
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The issues you describe are not completely uncommon for a PR type of system (especially what might be called a poorly tuned PR system), or for Polks, in general. Never having been a fan of Polk Audio, so I have not had first hand experience with these particular speakers. A really nice replacement for those would likely be the Extremis kit, which I think Steven has mentioned. They really are a very good sounding system, and would work exceptionally well with the power available from your Onkyo - a piece of gear that I always thought for the money was a spectacular buy...
kfr01 wrote:
| I'd like to stick with a computer based system, knowing that I do plan to re-encode my key collection in some lossless format. The receiver can go, we only watch tv in another room.
It seems logical that the speakers are the first thing to be fixed. The Polks will make a good reference point for me. |
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And why not... The M-Audio sound card you have is a fine piece of electronics. Very good specs. You are right, also, in the assumption that you need to address the speakers first. The speakers are ALWAYS the weak link in the audio chain, and they're what you listen to, for Pete's sake!
kfr01 wrote:
| I'm thinking about two different options:
1) Bookshelf + Powered subwoofer (obviously of higher quality than I've had in the past, preferably sealed).
2) Full-range (ish) towers. Thinking about trying the Extremis tower kit when it comes out.
Is it necessary to use a subwoofer for stereo listening at moderate volumes? Can the same quality sound be achieved? Better?
Should I consider replacing the receiver with a separate DAC + separate pre-amp? Passive? Active? Tube? (What the hell is the story with Tubes, btw?)
Are those little PCM usb sound devices that put out digital the best bet? Are DACs on sound cards and analog outs better or worse?
I've heard some people say you need a ASIO (or something like that) driver for the best sound in windows. Does anyone know anything about that?
Anyway. I don't have a ton of money, but every once in awhile I can throw a few hundred at a new piece. I'm open to any and all suggestions on strategy / tips / etc.
Oh, I listen to jazz primarily. I have always preferred systems best described as 'warm.' I do, however, put in rock from time to time and listen to a very limited amount of Techno / Electronic. I don't like a system to "wuss out" when asked to do this. :-) That said, I really listen at quite moderate volume levels. |
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If you go with the bookshelf + sub system (an excellent choice, with reasonable SAF, usually), try to locate a sub that has it's own hi-pass AND lo-pass crossover - not just a lo-pass. If powered, it can be line level, to feed your Onkyo. I recommend this to gain better integration between the sub a satellites, without overlap - a bad thing, in my humble opinion. Also, if you can get a sub with phase control, this will help with the integration as well. Adire has a great amp for a DIY subwoofers, and save the output for the external amp, it does everything you could need. It does have very nice EQ and crossover flexibility, though, so I am sure it would work with your system really well. You could even (if necessary) add a pair of Harrison Labs F-Mods to the signal path of your highs (into the Onkyo), to avoid wasting power that you really won't be using. This path WILL necessitate some experimentation, so be ready for it!
Any system can benefit from a quality subwoofer!
Separates will give FAR better flexibility, as you can choose the device with the options that work best for you. Honestly though, Being as you are planning on listening to compressed music, save the cash on the external DAC - you won't gain anything - the information you would be trying to squeeze out of the signal is gone already, remember? A really good active component will be FAR more expensive than something along the lines of the Creek OBH-12 (replaced with the
OBH-22. These'll run in the 300 to 400 dollar range, and are really nice performers for the money. All of the Creek components are available in the US at
Music Hall Audio. Tubes? The best sound around, but expensive, relative to solid-state. Stick with good solid-state (and you already have a start there), and you'll be happy...
I use a Phillips PSC805 Aurillium on my laptop, for listening, capture, AND diagnostics functions. It is a GREAT soundcard, and believe it or not, the software included with it is a pretty good product as well... Stable, at a minimum. Real world speaking, you probably wont be able to tell the difference between a good soundcard's analog and a decent external DAC. It MIGHT be possile for you to still find an Aurillium at CompUSA or Fry's. I got mine for 47 bux! It was a 129.00 soundcard. It's not on the CompUSA website anymore, but it is a good enough soundcard, that it might be worth the trip...
The ASIO driver for windows does not really look like anything you are going to need. You are not doing signal processing, just listening to music.
Here is a website to describe the function of it...
kfr01 wrote:
| Are you just guessing at that? I've heard very very differently about USB. I've heard that USB allows you to get the DACs and analog outs off away from the noisy and interferring environment of the PC. Basically the USB is not susceptible to noise or jitter. So this allows you to use a very short length of optical or coax digital very near to an outboard DAC.
I'm not interested in any extra features. Just 2 channel audio. It seems to me like USB is the best solution. In fact, this guy here: http://www.empiricalaudio.com/
claims that his modifed m-audio transits are better than many cd transports when used with lossless audio.
If a PCI based solution really is the best, let me know via some references or facts, please :-) Thanks for your input though! I appreciate the response. |
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Stick with the USB solution. It is true that a PC case is a noisy place, electrically speaking, and you are correct that removing it from that environment can help.
kfr01 wrote:
| Steven,
You're right - I am looking at this system for 100% music.
On the organ thing. Sometimes I DO listen to organ. Saint Saens Organ Symphony is awesome. Kit 61 still good?
DYohn, Haemphyst, what do you think of those Emperical Audio mods?
Any takers on the ASIO question and or / that company that makes the dacs and passive pres (haemphyst that sounded like a decent idea :-) |
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As far as listening to organ (and this instrument specifically) a good sub will indeed "flesh-out" the bottom end of any audio system. Please see my previous post... But yes, the KIT-61 would serve you nicely.
The ciaudio stuff looks pretty, but I bet you pay for that pretty face! Creek and Phil Marchand will give you any of those components for probably less money. I realy do not know, as I have never seen ciaudio anywhere. They are within a couple hours drive of my house, I should go look at the stuff... I don't REALLY like to form an opinion without knowing what I am opining about...
I really do like my passive pre-amp. The creek does have switching functions, just like the ciaudio, but it also has remote control, something not even available with the ciaudio.
BTW, kfr01, are you in SoCal, or where? I would like to get you to Bakersfield to hear my system, and the big brother of it at another friends' house. His makes mine look like a Tonka Toy...
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
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